This Mostly White City Wants To Leave Its Mostly Black School District

Jhhnn · Dec 20, 2016

glenn1 said:
Then it's clearly evident that you should support this "mostly white city" because the benefit they'd gain by not being chained to the poor urban schools would almost certainly be way, way above 10%.

That bullshit is writ large all over the country with the haves seeking even greater advantage over the have-nots at every opportunity. It ends up being defined in terms of race rather than class which just reinforces that tendency, sad to say.

Lots of kids of all races attend lousy schools so that kids further up the economic food chain can have better. Affluent parents are fine with that just so long as their kids get good schools & will remain so if they can separate themselves from the larger needs of the community & the nation in just the manner you advocate.

A poorly educated citizenry is a liability to the nation. Don't believe me? Witness Trump as President.

Puffnstuff · Dec 20, 2016

Students who do not want to learn will continue to fail regardless of whether or not they attend a school in a more affluent area. Instilling a desire to learn at an early age falls directly upon the shoulders of their parents and nobody else so stop trying to make it sound like the school system has somehow failed them by failing to lower their standards down to their depths of underperformance.

Jhhnn · Dec 20, 2016

Puffnstuff said:
Students who do not want to learn will continue to fail regardless of whether or not they attend a school in a more affluent area. Instilling a desire to learn at an early age falls directly upon the shoulders of their parents and nobody else so stop trying to make it sound like the school system has somehow failed them by failing to lower their standards down to their depths of underperformance.

Please. That's why we have head start & a variety of pre-K programs. Well, or maybe I should put that in past tense, huh?

Or, screw those little bastards. They won't learn anyway.

Sunburn74 · Dec 20, 2016

Puffnstuff said:
Students who do not want to learn will continue to fail regardless of whether or not they attend a school in a more affluent area. Instilling a desire to learn at an early age falls directly upon the shoulders of their parents and nobody else so stop trying to make it sound like the school system has somehow failed them by failing to lower their standards down to their depths of underperformance.

The desire to learn is based on self perception of skill at learning. Self perception of skill at learning is directly related to the quality of teacher.

The reason why most of us pursued something (a hobby, a field of study or career) is largely in part because we perceive ourselves as being good at that thing. That perception is directly related to the exposure we had to that thing and whether it was a positive or negative experience. Talent plays a role as well, but even the recognition of talent requires someone to point out its presence positively and guide its development.

glenn1 said:
Then it's clearly evident that you should support this "mostly white city" because the benefit they'd gain by not being chained to the poor urban schools would almost certainly be way, way above 10%.

I don't believe that on the whole students, inter-student interactions significantly affect educational outcomes (ie bad jocks, or pregnant girls who don't go to class dragging down the entire schools quality of education). I think overall, quality of education on the whole (again point cases of bullying, substance abuse and etc do not apply here) is mostly related to teacher quality and teacher and school resources. Looking back at my public school years, I can think of a few kids who perhaps improved my educational experience (ie resulted in better grades) directly. I can't think of a single person who actually contributed to a worse grade for me (ie if that person wasn't there, I totally would have gotten a A+ instead of an A- or B).

Furthermore, there are clear benefits to be had for races to interact with each other. It links diversity with normalcy. Any scientist will tell you, the more diverse a population is, the more likely it is to survive. Furthermore, these white kids are going to have to learn how to interact with other races at some point. Better during youth where they are malleable, than painfully later in life when it actually counts.

glenn1 · Dec 20, 2016

Jhhnn said:
Please. That's why we have head start & a variety of pre-K programs. Well, or maybe I should put that in past tense, huh?

Or, screw those little bastards. They won't learn anyway.

No disagreement on the later. We're watching evolution at work and the real-time development of H.G. Wells' morlocks in the inner cities.

Jhhnn · Dec 20, 2016

glenn1 said:
No disagreement on the later. We're watching evolution at work and the real-time development of H.G. Wells' morlocks in the inner cities.

Does that apply to the 24% of Birmingham residents who are white or just to the black ones?

http://birminghamal.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

glenn1 · Dec 20, 2016

Jhhnn said:
Does that apply to the 24% of Birmingham residents who are white or just to the black ones?

http://birminghamal.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

Race isn't a factor for me although I'm sure that's the almost exclusive lens you see it through. The proper view is that white, black, yellow, red, green, or any other color the kids of Birmingham city are dragging down the kids of the Gardendale as the former are stupid. I've circled the city in blue below so you can see how far down the stupid list they are.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2016/11/alabamas_test_results_by_distr.html

interchange · Dec 20, 2016

Puffnstuff said:
When I lived in Philly they had forced bussing to bring black kids from the west side of town to the predominately Italian Southside to attend school. Did this work? Hell no it didn't. The kids were not in any way more inclined to learn at our high school than they were in the schools that permeated their own neighborhoods. Their attitudes towards learning needed to be shaped first but that required parental involvement to establish learning norms for them to abide by. You can allow them to attend the best schools but if they possess the wrong attitudes they will not only fail to learn but will serve as a bad influence on those around them adversely affecting their ability to learn as well.

I'm curious how your experience affected your views on race. Do you think this taught you something more along the lines of:
a. black people are stupid
b. black people are just people

I agree with the observation that people who come from impoverished situations are unlikely to succeed without their home and community instilling positive attitudes toward education, and black people are more likely to be in those situations.

I think that there is huge societal value to option b gathered from experiential learning rather than didactic learning.

Puffnstuff · Dec 20, 2016

Sunburn74 said:
The desire to learn is based on self perception of skill at learning. Self perception of skill at learning is directly related to the quality of teacher.

Any teacher will tell you that they want their students to learn but that desire in and of itself will not promote learning on the part of the student unless they personally desire to learn. This is much like a drug user who you might wish to help. Your desire to help them elevate from their current situation to one that is drug free will not by itself lead to that individual desiring to quit using drugs. Only when they achieve self awareness and a desire to break free from their situation will they begin taking the necessary steps to promote self improvement. Learning begins with the individual. I didn't need a teacher to tell me that I needed to learn. As a small child I recognized that information was available and that it would benefit me to learn it rather than go outside and play all day after school. Yes teachers can be a positive role model, as Albert Bandura's tests proved, but they are not the only consideration to learning. Even if a student has a poor teacher if they possess self efficacy they will learn the material anyway and excel above their peers. You cannot skirt personal responsibility in the learning process so stop trying to make excuses for people who have no desire to learn but don't want to take the blame for their own actions.

Jhhnn · Dec 20, 2016

Sunburn74 said:
Furthermore, there are clear benefits to be had for races to interact with each other. It links diversity with normalcy. Any scientist will tell you, the more diverse a population is, the more likely it is to survive. Furthermore, these white kids are going to have to learn how to interact with other races at some point. Better during youth where they are malleable, than painfully later in life when it actually counts.

You mean our cultural identity needs to be bigger than ethnic or racial identity?

You'd be right, I think, particularly for those of us who live in urban areas.

Puffnstuff · Dec 20, 2016

interchange said:
I'm curious how your experience affected your views on race. Do you think this taught you something more along the lines of:
a. black people are stupid
b. black people are just people

I agree with the observation that people who come from impoverished situations are unlikely to succeed without their home and community instilling positive attitudes toward education, and black people are more likely to be in those situations.

I think that there is huge societal value to option b gathered from experiential learning rather than didactic learning.

Where did you see me state that race was a factor in learning? Describing forced bussing does not equate to me believing that group a is superior to group b. No one race is superior to any other when it comes to learning and applying yourself to your studies is what makes the difference. If a student doesn't wish to apply themselves then the other students around them should not be penalized for their failure to achieve a higher academic score. President Obama and General Powell are fine examples of what happens when you apply yourself to learning.

interchange · Dec 20, 2016

Puffnstuff said:
Where did you see me state that race was a factor in learning? Describing forced bussing does not equate to me believing that group a is superior to group b. No one race is superior to any other when it comes to learning and applying yourself to your studies is what makes the difference. If a student doesn't wish to apply themselves then the other students around them should not be penalized for their failure to achieve a higher academic score. President Obama and General Powell are fine examples of what happens when you apply yourself to learning.

I think you misread my intent. I am highlighting what I think is the real benefit of your experience. You have learned from your experience to separate clearly these attributes from race. You are uninhibited in looking at your experience and data and coming to a conclusion that makes sense to you. You can respond here not defensively and supporting your positions on their merits instead of attacking another.

I disagree with your position, but it's damn refreshing to actually discuss something here.

Sunburn74 · Dec 20, 2016

Puffnstuff said:
Any teacher will tell you that they want their students to learn but that desire in and of itself will not promote learning on the part of the student unless they personally desire to learn. This is much like a drug user who you might wish to help. Your desire to help them elevate from their current situation to one that is drug free will not by itself lead to that individual desiring to quit using drugs. Only when they achieve self awareness and a desire to break free from their situation will they begin taking the necessary steps to promote self improvement. Learning begins with the individual. I didn't need a teacher to tell me that I needed to learn. As a small child I recognized that information was available and that it would benefit me to learn it rather than go outside and play all day after school. Yes teachers can be a positive role model, as Albert Bandura's tests proved, but they are not the only consideration to learning. Even if a student has a poor teacher if they possess self efficacy they will learn the material anyway and excel above their peers. You cannot skirt personal responsibility in the learning process so stop trying to make excuses for people who have no desire to learn but don't want to take the blame for their own actions.

Dude what are you talking about? I'm extremely familiar with Bandura's work by the way.

Lets take a step back here. When we are talking about schools, most people are jumping to thinking about the finished product: ie bad 11th or 12th graders who go on do little in life or even do harm to society. Thats NOT what I'm talking about for the most part. I'm talking having better schools at a much earlier age.

Development isn't a one time event. Its over years. The concepts you are applying again are assuming extensive conscious decisions are being made. What I'm saying is those very conscious decisions are shaped by years of development and environmental exposure, a good deal of which is teaching. A young child who early on finds out he's good at math has a chance at developing that skill. Just like a child who finds out early he is skilled with a violin goes on to develop the skill.

Right now mozart and chopin would not qualify for many music schools in this country. Its not that music students have gotten better but the quality of teaching is so much more advanced that talent is extracted earlier and faster. The kids who are accepted today have been playing for years as children. None of them are just starting at highschool. They were told early on they had talent and given the chance to cultivate it to where they surpass legends of the past. This is not genetics. Its teaching.Teaching can do that. Resources at your school can do that.

Personal responsibility has nothing to do with people's success or much to do with learning. Bandura himself would speak obscenities to you if he saw what your wrote.

Puffnstuff · Dec 20, 2016

Sunburn74 said:
Development isn't a one time event. Its over years.

True beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Sunburn74 said:
Personal responsibility has nothing to do with people's success or much to do with learning

The professional welfare milkers applaud you sir.

Jhhnn · Dec 20, 2016

glenn1 said:
Race isn't a factor for me although I'm sure that's the almost exclusive lens you see it through. The proper view is that white, black, yellow, red, green, or any other color the kids of Birmingham city are dragging down the kids of the Gardendale as the former are stupid. I've circled the city in blue below so you can see how far down the stupid list they are.

So intelligence is dependent on where kids live? I did not know that.

brycejones · Dec 20, 2016

Jhhnn said:
So intelligence is dependent on where kids live? I did not know that.

Glenn has some pathological hatred of cities and the people who live in them.

glenn1 · Dec 20, 2016

Jhhnn said:
So intelligence is dependent on where kids live? I did not know that.

Well if it isn't then the kids in Birmingham city just decided to do terrible on those measured education assessments just because YOLO despite being geniuses. Either way whether stupidity or lack of application those aren't the results or the people we should be subsidizing to get more terribleness.

Maverick177 · Dec 20, 2016

Sunburn74 said:
Dude what are you talking about? I'm extremely familiar with Bandura's work by the way.

Personal responsibility has nothing to do with people's success or much to do with learning. Bandura himself would speak obscenities to you if he saw what your wrote.

Please remove yourself from the society.

Jhhnn · Dec 20, 2016

glenn1 said:
Well if it isn't then the kids in Birmingham city just decided to do terrible on those measured education assessments just because YOLO despite being geniuses. Either way whether stupidity or lack of application those aren't the results or the people we should be subsidizing to get more terribleness.

Just dump 'em. They'll never amount to anything. Certainly not if you could make it the way you want.

Jhhnn · Dec 20, 2016

Maverick177 said:
Please remove yourself from the society.

Please consider the fact that Trump is the President elect. He even stiffed the Freedom Kids for a lousy $2500-

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...dom-kids-drop-lawsuit-against-trump/95649110/

glenn1 · Dec 20, 2016

Jhhnn said:
Just dump 'em. They'll never amount to anything. Certainly not if you could make it the way you want.

Interesting choice of words, that use of "dump." It seems to imply that you believe people have an obligation to be forced to assist others and that hasn't been the case since passage of the 13th Amendment. The people of Gardendale have no more duty to sacrifice their kids education to help the kids of Birmingham city than those B-City kids have the right to demand you empty your child's 529 College Savings account and hand it over to them.

agent00f · Dec 21, 2016

bshole said:
Well that is kind of funny. My son is a white kid whose friends are black. He loves everything about black culture, he dresses black, he talks black, etc.... What is amazing to me is that he has developed a bit of antipathy for the white race and has expressed self-loathing of his white race on occasion. When a white racist does a harmful thing, he is ALL over it and extrapolates that single data point to ALL whites. He appears to have made the white race the OTHER even though he himself is white. It seems like humans NEED there to be an OTHER, that if they learn to tolerate a certain group with differences they instinctively find another group to become the OTHER.

He's just trying to fit in. You just don't notice other minorities doing it as much. The point of multiculturalism is to normalize social plurality. Obviously this is detrimental to folks who perceive some advantage from their ethnic social standing.

Puffnstuff said:
Any teacher will tell you that they want their students to learn but that desire in and of itself will not promote learning on the part of the student unless they personally desire to learn. This is much like a drug user who you might wish to help. Your desire to help them elevate from their current situation to one that is drug free will not by itself lead to that individual desiring to quit using drugs. Only when they achieve self awareness and a desire to break free from their situation will they begin taking the necessary steps to promote self improvement. Learning begins with the individual. I didn't need a teacher to tell me that I needed to learn. As a small child I recognized that information was available and that it would benefit me to learn it rather than go outside and play all day after school. Yes teachers can be a positive role model, as Albert Bandura's tests proved, but they are not the only consideration to learning. Even if a student has a poor teacher if they possess self efficacy they will learn the material anyway and excel above their peers. You cannot skirt personal responsibility in the learning process so stop trying to make excuses for people who have no desire to learn but don't want to take the blame for their own actions.

These sort of affirmative actions are basically reparations for past crimes. This topic is basically between responsible people who believe there's some social moral imperative to make things right and their opposite.

glenn1 said:
Interesting choice of words, that use of "dump." It seems to imply that you believe people have an obligation to be forced to assist others and that hasn't been the case since passage of the 13th Amendment. The people of Gardendale have no more duty to sacrifice their kids education to help the kids of Birmingham city than those B-City kids have the right to demand you empty your child's 529 College Savings account and hand it over to them.

But the blue areas of the map do have an obligation to subsidize your sort, because you're white enough.

Zaap · Dec 21, 2016

glenn1 said:
Interesting choice of words, that use of "dump." It seems to imply that you believe people have an obligation to be forced to assist others and that hasn't been the case since passage of the 13th Amendment. The people of Gardendale have no more duty to sacrifice their kids education to help the kids of Birmingham city than those B-City kids have the right to demand you empty your child's 529 College Savings account and hand it over to them.

The dumbest thing is, the shitty results you posted aren't from anyone 'dumping' the rest of Jefferson Co (including Birmingham). That's the results with the tax base as it exists TODAY, right now.

Gardendale merely wants to fund it's own schools- it's not like they've done so already. But in flush's little world, just suggesting something that hasn't even happened yet (and ignoring the SHITTY reality that's true right now, not as a result of something that hasn't happened) means people are being 'dumped'.

As as if it was just Gardendale funding the county, 13,000 people. Here's a list of all the Birmingham suburbs, of which Gardendale is hardly the most populace.

Hoover: Pop. 84,126
Vestavia Hills: Pop. 34,018
Alabaster: Pop. 31,342
Bessemer: Pop. 27,053
Homewood: Pop. 25,750
Pelham: Pop. 22,289
Trussville: Pop. 20,368
Mountain Brook: Pop. 20,359
Helena: Pop. 17,560
Center Point: Pop. 16,864

Hueytown: Pop. 15,866
Talladega: Pop. 15,846
Cullman: Pop. 15,030
Jasper: Pop. 14,222
Gardendale: Pop. 13,735
Calera: Pop. 12,756
Sylacauga: Pop. 12,736
Moody: Pop. 12,390
Irondale: Pop. 12,379
Leeds: Pop. 11,907

Chelsea: Pop. 11,277
Fairfield: Pop. 10,952
Pleasant Grove: Pop. 10,361
Forestdale: Pop. 10,162
Clay: Pop. 9,711
Fultondale: Pop. 8,752
Clanton: Pop. 8,745
Pinson: Pop. 7,132
Oneonta: Pop. 6,674
Montevallo: Pop. 6,575

Awww gee, but because ONE of these wants to leave, I guess people in Birmingham are being 'dumped'. This whole subject is stupid- it's just race-bait nonsense. It's a non-story other than people trying to make it about race, and the DEEPLY held liberal belief that black people are fundamentally helpless and inferior.

BTW, I notice another detail about this entire (NON) story, having been misled by flush's bullshit- this actually doesn't seem to even be about Birmingham (other than these places are suburbs).

As I read it, this whole thing only applies to Jefferson Co, and their school system- the system Gardendale wants to leave. Jefferson Co. is majority white- 53%. It's listed about halfway up that chart at around 45%.

Birmingham City is its own school district. The story is wrong in the first place: Jefferson Co isn't a majority black school district (nor Mostly as the original story uses.)

Total non-issue. Just a city that wants to pull away from a county (not a black inner city) and some idiots making it about race and even misrepresenting the county's racial makeup to stir nitwits like flush to concern-troll over it.

compuwiz1 · Dec 21, 2016

agent00f said:
I can only recommend you let no one dissuade you from this pursuit.

Are you being held, somewhere, against your will?
(,)(,) = no
( )( ) = yes

agent00f said:
He's just trying to fit in. You just don't notice other minorities doing it as much. The point of multiculturalism is to normalize social plurality. Obviously this is detrimental to folks who perceive some advantage from their ethnic social standing.

These sort of affirmative actions are basically reparations for past crimes. This topic is basically between responsible people who believe there's some social moral imperative to make things right and their opposite.

But the blue areas of the map do have an obligation to subsidize your sort, because you're white enough.

Are you white?
A simple yes or no will suffice.

agent00f · Dec 21, 2016

Zaap said:
The dumbest thing is, the shitty results you posted aren't from anyone 'dumping' the rest of Jefferson Co (including Birmingham). That's the results with the tax base as it exists TODAY, right now.

Gardendale merely wants to fund it's own schools- it's not like they've done so already. But in flush's little world, just suggesting something that hasn't even happened yet (and ignoring the SHITTY reality that's true right now, not as a result of something that hasn't happened) means people are being 'dumped'.

As as if it was just Gardendale funding the county, 13,000 people. Here's a list of all the Birmingham suburbs, of which Gardendale is hardly the most populace.

Hoover: Pop. 84,126

Vestavia Hills: Pop. 34,018

Alabaster: Pop. 31,342

Bessemer: Pop. 27,053

Homewood: Pop. 25,750

Pelham: Pop. 22,289

Trussville: Pop. 20,368

Mountain Brook: Pop. 20,359

Helena: Pop. 17,560

Center Point: Pop. 16,864

Hueytown: Pop. 15,866

Talladega: Pop. 15,846

Cullman: Pop. 15,030

Jasper: Pop. 14,222

Gardendale: Pop. 13,735

Calera: Pop. 12,756

Sylacauga: Pop. 12,736

Moody: Pop. 12,390

Irondale: Pop. 12,379

Leeds: Pop. 11,907

Chelsea: Pop. 11,277

Fairfield: Pop. 10,952

Pleasant Grove: Pop. 10,361

Forestdale: Pop. 10,162

Clay: Pop. 9,711

Fultondale: Pop. 8,752

Clanton: Pop. 8,745

Pinson: Pop. 7,132

Oneonta: Pop. 6,674

Montevallo: Pop. 6,575

Awww gee, but because ONE of these wants to leave, I guess people in Birmingham are being 'dumped'. This whole subject is stupid- it's just race-bait nonsense. It's a non-story other than people trying to make it about race, and the DEEPLY held liberal belief that black people are fundamentally helpless and inferior.

Racists trot this out when they prefer spending gubmint welfare on whites only.

compuwiz1 said:
Are you being held, somewhere, against your will?
(,)(,) = no
( )( ) = yes

Are you white?
A simple yes or no will suffice.

Good to know how important this is to you.

This Mostly White City Wants To Leave Its Mostly Black School District

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