Question RAM for APU gaming question

Zepp · Jan 8, 2024

I am currently gaming on just a 5700G

I'm looking to upgrade my RAM from 16GB 3200 single rank kit to 32GB dual rank kit, but I'm wondering if it would be worth it to spend more on faster RAM as well. I haven't seen as much comparison of RAM speed scaling in the last couple gens of APUs.

my motherboard is Gigabyte A520 that lists Support for DDR4 4400(O.C.)/ 4000(O.C.)/ 3600(O.C.)
there is a 4400 speed kit on newegg for a good price right now. $82.

do you think this would be worth it over just sticking with the cheaper 3200 speed for $59?

Thunder 57 · Jan 8, 2024

Zepp said:
I am currently gaming on just a 5700G

I'm looking to upgrade my RAM from 16GB 3200 single rank kit to 32GB dual rank kit, but I'm wondering if it would be worth it to spend more on faster RAM as well. I haven't seen as much comparison of RAM speed scaling in the last couple gens of APUs.

my motherboard is Gigabyte A520 that lists Support for DDR4 4400(O.C.)/ 4000(O.C.)/ 3600(O.C.)
there is a 4400 speed kit on newegg for a good price right now. $82.

do you think this would be worth it over just sticking with the cheaper 3200 speed for $59?

3600 seems to be the sweet spot as it will keep the FCLK at 1:1, and it costs almost nothing over 3200. But I don't have expirence with the G types. It's possible that faster memory will help even with a slower fabric clock.

Zepp · Jan 8, 2024

thanks I had forgotten about the fclk ratio

aigomorla · Jan 8, 2024

IMO i would just pair up your ram (identical vendor and model), so grab another 16GB 3200mhz, so you gain dual channel profile.

You really wont notice the difference between 3200 vs 3600 unless your running synthetic benchmarks.
And its a waste to grab 2 x 16gb sticks.

If you want a boost, id probably save the difference and use it on a cheap dgpu as it will probably net you the most noticiable gains unless all you do is watch and view spreadsheets.

moinmoin · Jan 9, 2024

You could also try to improve the subtimings. For AM4 systems the DRAM Calculator for Ryzen remains a good tool for that purpose. I'm sure others can help you if you have questions about that.

Zepp · Jan 9, 2024

aigomorla said:
IMO i would just pair up your ram (identical vendor and model), so grab another 16GB 3200mhz, so you gain dual channel profile.
And its a waste to grab 2 x 16gb sticks.

no it isn't at all. RAM is cheap now and I want both 32GB and dual rank dimms

aigomorla said:
You really wont notice the difference between 3200 vs 3600 unless your running synthetic benchmarks.

smaller improvements are more noticeable gaming on iGPU.

aigomorla said:
If you want a boost, id probably save the difference and use it on a cheap dgpu as it will probably net you the most noticiable gains unless all you do is watch and view spreadsheets.

it's a choice to use my current setup without dGPU for various reasons. I'm out $72 for the RAM kit I want and I can recover a little on the old kit on FB market. This suits me more than whatever GPU I could have for that amount.

BurnItDwn · Jan 9, 2024

The extra memory bandwidth will absolutely help with APU Gaming and the gains will likely be pretty linear.
If you do not have power, space, or budget for a standalone GPU and want to get the most out of the APU, then get the fastest ram that fits your budget.
As you go faster, the value (performance per dollar) will likely decline.

This is old, but a good article on the subject

Zen and Vega DDR4 Memory Scaling on AMD's APUs

www.anandtech.com

Toms has a decent article as well, comparing a well tuned 5700g with ddr4000 vs other APU setups.

AMD Ryzen 7 5700G Review: Fastest Integrated Graphics Ever

Your best choice, if you don't use discrete graphics

www.tomshardware.com

DAPUNISHER · Jan 9, 2024

@BurnItDwn is on point.

I have a 5700G and have done a lot of iGPU gaming on it. The faster the ram the better. Remember kids, system ram is vram with APUs. Even breaking sync with the infinity fabric is fine for APU gaming if you can get higher ram speed that way. All of the usual concerns about latency and CPU performance are subservient to memory bandwidth. At least for most games. I'm certain there are outliers, there always are.

@Zepp

Don't forget to overclock the iGPU too. I have mine at 2400Mhz for APU gaming. I also use 4133MT/s ram with it. The CPU I set it to +200MHz PBO which with just a cheap 120mm AIO yields 4.85Ghz boost. I'll have to double check but I think I have it in ECO mode too. I use XMP for the ram, everything else auto.

Outside of the newer system stranglers, the 5700G games way better than most would think. Especially with the overclocks and fast ram. Obviously some of those newer AAA will look like ass because of how much FSR you'll need. And using a 1080p monitor is the other important component, as anything higher exacerbates the IQ issue when using FSR or XeSS.

DeathReborn · Jan 9, 2024

This video from Hardware Unboxed should give you the info you need, basically what @DAPUNISHER said but with added data.

aigomorla · Jan 9, 2024

Zepp said:
no it isn't at all. RAM is cheap now and I want both 32GB and dual rank dimms

smaller improvements are more noticeable gaming on iGPU.

it's a choice to use my current setup without dGPU for various reasons. I'm out $72 for the RAM kit I want and I can recover a little on the old kit on FB market. This suits me more than whatever GPU I could have for that amount.

OK, first off what do you do that requires 64GB's of system ram on your system?
Most users who go that much in system ram typically have higher tier systems like a full on Ryzen 5800X or greater class with that many more cores.
Games will not drastically improve going from 32GB to 64GB.
Games will improve going from Single Channel DDR4, to Dual Channel DDR4.
We call them Channel not Rank, or are you talking about using 1R vs 2R ram?

And no, small improvements are not noticable on a system that low end for gaming.
If your system is already struggling, no amount of increased ram with increased speed will improve it.
You will be back in square one with nothing gained but excess ram which you didn't need.

Biggest improvements on small gains can be seen on mid tier, with the lowest returns being on high tier.
Low tier is a tier your better off just upgrading yourself out of to get into mid tier.

1660 Super is running for about 100 dollars on Ebay shipped.
There is no ram kit in the world that will net you a greater performance boost over a 1660 Super.

If you want an actual gaming improvement, which you will definitely notice, just get an additional 16GB of DDR4 to match and pair the current ram you have so you get dual channel, and get a used 1660 Super.
A dGPU vs IGP even on the 5000G series Ryzen is night vs day.

The only reason why you wouldn't want a dGPU on your system is because its a Mini and has no place to put a dGPU.

DeathReborn said:
This video from Hardware Unboxed should give you the info you need, basically what @DAPUNISHER said but with added data.

He mentions everything i just said in the above post...

You see... bearly any noticable gains...
But look at the top.. a dGPU gives you DOUBLE performance.

Buy a used 1660Super on Ebay or FB Market... people are unloading them as they are mostly retired mining cards, they probably still have a decient amount of life on them, as Etherium mining died a little after the launch of the 1660Super.

Here is an example of what i am talking about.

ASUS TUF GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER 6GB Gaming Graphics Card TUF-GTX1660S-O6G-GAMING | eBay

Manufacturer: Asus. Item part number: TUF-GTX1660S-O6G-GAMING. With our dynamic pricing model, our prices are always competitive. Competitive Pricing. You're already purchasing the item.

www.ebay.com

Thunder 57 · Jan 9, 2024

aigomorla said:
OK, first off what do you do that requires 64GB's of system ram on your system?
Most users who go that much in system ram typically have higher tier systems like a full on Ryzen 5800X or greater class with that many more cores.
Games will not drastically improve going from 32GB to 64GB.
Games will improve going from Single Channel DDR4, to Dual Channel DDR4.
We call them Channel not Rank.

And no, small improvements are not noticable on a system that low end for gaming.
If your system is already struggling, no amount of increased ram with increased speed will improve it.
You will be back in square one with nothing gained but excess ram which you didn't need.

Biggest improvements on small gains can be seen on mid tier, with the lowest returns being on high tier.
Low tier is a tier your better off just upgrading yourself out of to get into mid tier.

1660 Super is running for about 100 dollars on Ebay shipped.
There is no ram kit in the world that will net you a greater performance boost over a 1660 Super.

If you want an actual gaming improvement, which you will definitely notice, just get an additional 16GB of DDR4 to match and pair the current ram you have so you get dual channel, and get a used 1660 Super.
A dGPU vs IGP even on the 5000 series Ryzen is night vs day.

The only reason why you wouldn't want a dGPU on your system is because its a Mini and has no place to put a dGPU.

I read that as 32GB total. No way you are getting 64GB for $72. Also, channel and rank are different things.

Also, why so stubborn? OP has clearly stated thay want to use an iGPU. There is probably a reason for that. Could be using a tiny PC like you said. Could be prices of dGPU's in their market. An RX 580 8GB can be had on ebay for right around $70 as well and be worlds better for gaming. Again though, there seems to be a reason for going with an iGPU, and I respect that. I might not agree, but I don't know the reasons behind it.

aigomorla · Jan 9, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
I read that as 32GB total. No way you are getting 64GB for $72. Also, channel and rank are different things.

Also, why so stubborn? OP has clearly stated thay want to use an iGPU. There is probably a reason for that. Could be using a tiny PC like you said. Could be prices of dGPU's in their market. n RX 580 8GB can be had on ebay for right around $70 as well and be worlds better for gaming. Again though, there seems to be a reason for going with an iGPU, and I respect that.

And Oh your right... i read 2 x 32GB dimms for some reason.
And yes i was explaining to him that Channel and Ranks are different.
Unless he is talking about 2RX8 dimms, which i doubt he is, as most rams are 1R, single ranked.

The OP wants to see an improvement, then we need to give him actual solutions to see an improvement.

Ive been in this OP's situation when building my niece her PC.
The best gains is from a dGPU.

But hey, if the OP wants to go with ram, then why even asking for advice?
Just go ahead and do it.

However i am not the type to hype up 1-2fps gain and say its a significant and worthy upgrade, when you can get a 100% improvment doing it another way.

Again if you want to do the ram upgrade, go ahead, but i can assure you, your not going to notice it.
Many sources point out to a less then 3fps gain.
But if that is significant to you , then by all means, just do what you feel is worth your money.

Also if your going upgrade your ram anyhow, and you do resell hardware, 32GB sticks holds the best value over time so a 64GB kit maybe a better investment in the long run, so you may want to consider that, and think of selling them off in the future.

But that again is my 2 cents.

Thunder 57 · Jan 9, 2024

aigomorla said:
And Oh your right... i read 2 x 32GB dimms for some reason.
And yes i was explaining to him that Channel and Ranks are different.
Unless he is talking about 2RX8 dimms, which i doubt he is, as most rams are 1R, single ranked.

The OP wants to see an improvement, then we need to give him actual solutions to see an improvement.

Ive been in this OP's situation when building my niece her PC.
The best gains is from a dGPU.

But hey, if the OP wants to go with ram, then why even asking for advice?
Just go ahead and do it.

However i am not the type to hype up 1-2fps gain and say its a significant and worthy upgrade, when you can get a 100% improvment doing it another way.

Going from single channel 3200 to dual channel 3600 will bring more than 1-2% gains. A dGPU seems to be the obvious answer. Who knows though, maybe he only games a bit or older games. My newest game is probably Doom Eternal. Hardly a demanding title.

GunsMadeAmericaFree · Jan 10, 2024

DAPUNISHER said:
@BurnItDwn is on point.

I have a 5700G and have done a lot of iGPU gaming on it. The faster the ram the better. Remember kids, system ram is vram with APUs. Even breaking sync with the infinity fabric is fine for APU gaming if you can get higher ram speed that way. All of the usual concerns about latency and CPU performance are subservient to memory bandwidth. At least for most games. I'm certain there are outliers, there always are.

@Zepp

Don't forget to overclock the iGPU too. I have mine at 2400Mhz for APU gaming. I also use 4133MT/s ram with it. The CPU I set it to +200MHz PBO which with just a cheap 120mm AIO yields 4.85Ghz boost. I'll have to double check but I think I have it in ECO mode too. I use XMP for the ram, everything else auto.

Outside of the newer system stranglers, the 5700G games way better than most would think. Especially with the overclocks and fast ram. Obviously some of those newer AAA will look like ass because of how much FSR you'll need. And using a 1080p monitor is the other important component, as anything higher exacerbates the IQ issue when using FSR or XeSS.

I'm in a similar boat, but objectively, what is a realistic % difference in performance between the slowest and the fastest RAM?

Hitman928 · Jan 10, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
Going from single channel 3200 to dual channel 3600 will bring more than 1-2% gains. A dGPU seems to be the obvious answer. Who knows though, maybe he only games a bit or older games. My newest game is probably Doom Eternal. Hardly a demanding title.

@aigomorla was not saying that dual channel would only bring 1-2 fps gain over single channel but was arguing for buying 1 stick of RAM to match his current stick to bring it to dual channel at 3200 versus buying 2 new sticks of faster RAM, which would be essentially double the cost for a non-meaningful increase in performance. I agree with him but we also don't know all the details of the OP's plan or goal. If he has a mini unit with no space for any dGPU and just wants to see how much performance he can get out of the system, then sure, go for the fastest dual channel RAM you can get. If the goal is to game on the cheap using an APU, then it makes no sense to spend the extra money on RAM that could instead go to a dGPU and give you much better performance.

Hitman928 · Jan 10, 2024

GunsMadeAmericaFree said:
I'm in a similar boat, but objectively, what is a realistic % difference in performance between the slowest and the fastest RAM?

Depends on the game, but between the absolute slowest and fastest RAM, probably like 25 - 30% difference. Between a halfway decent RAM and fastest RAM, maybe like 10 - 15% which isn't really enough to make a noticeable difference in the vast majority of situations.

DAPUNISHER · Jan 10, 2024

Zepp said:
smaller improvements are more noticeable gaming on iGPU.

Exactly. And when you combine fast ram, CPU and iGPU overclocking together, it can be the difference maker. FSR, XeSS, and now even frame generation, are useful at times too. While FG won't change latency or feel of controls, it can smooth out jittery or choppy presentation in some titles. Sometimes native 720p looks better than upscaling at 1080, in other games upscaling looks better. But all of them are a net benefit for APU gaming.

DAPUNISHER · Jan 11, 2024

I will bring some APU loving in here. 5700G sleeper HTPC I threw together tonight.

This case is so old the front panel USB are 1.1 So I removed the cables. Slim DVD player still works.

ASRock B450 Fata1ty Gaming ITX/ac
5700G +200MHz boost
Noctua NH-L9a
2x8GB Trident Z 4133MT/s
Apevia Flex 300W
15yr old HTPC case w/slim DVD

Next up: results and commentary.

DAPUNISHER · Jan 11, 2024

3DMark scores -

Something nerfed with the database. No way those are the highest scores for the 5700G.

DAPUNISHER · Jan 11, 2024

I got the exact same result as Steve in Zero Dawn 1080p favor performance. Despite 400MHz higher iGPU speed. This canned bench is a good example of how lazy his testing could be. He chose favor performance because it's quick and repeatable. Here's the problem; the screen tearing is beyond intolerable.

Instead I put some settings on high including textures and AF, as it's all the same ram pool and has little effect on performance. Shadows medium, and turned off motion blur and AO. Then enabled FSR Quality. Looked much better, as the shimmering is far less distracting than the constant tearing. Also picked up 10 fps. Plus kept the lows comfortably over 30.

Shadow of War I set to 1080 Ultra with the Ultra high res texture pack. Same complaints about vram. By using the dynamic res scaling and setting it to 30fps console target, it looked the best of all the combos I tried. It completely eliminated pop in, which is right up there with tearing, on my list of worst IQ annoyances. Though TAA makes it softer yet, everything still has a lot more detail than lower settings without the HD textures.

I captured and cropped this as a jpeg which did it no favors. The camera was still moving in too. It is 1080 Ultra DRS. The low texture model looked like PS1 or PS2 at best.

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