Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

DrMrLordX · Jun 1, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Early shipment programs are the same for both vendors and do NOT quality as launch.

I didn't think it was so much an "early shipment" as it was an "only shipment".

DavidC1 · Jun 2, 2024

AMDK11 said:
The IPC drop in some cases was caused by changing the cache subsystem from very large L2 to very small L2 and large unified L3.

The IPC drop that RWT guys have determined have been in cases where it wasn't due to the cache changes. They verified this.

I agree it's not the exact same core, but the focus on Nehalem was the uncore. The point of Tick/Tock was to minimize risks remember? You minimize risks of new design on the Tick, and change only process. You minimize risks of new process on the Tock with a new design. The addition of SMT itself was a risk as it complicates validation.

The physical world is a world of balances and compromises. The world of CPU design demonstrates this readily. It is between balancing on accelerator-like functions versus enhancing general purpose compute(which also improves workloads that run on accelerators). On top of die size requirements, ease of implementation, and power use.

Integer workloads are a definition of General Purpose Compute. That is the hardest to improve, precisely because the balance has to be done so carefully. It is here where Nehalem's gains are the lowest, because the focus is elsewhere. When you eliminate workloads that are bandwidth bound, benefits from SMT, and turn off Turbo, it's slightly better than a Tick.

If Alderlake was Willow Cove core with Gracemont added on and using Intel 7, yes surely it would have been much faster in many applications but it still would have been disappointing. It is the enhanced architecture that uplifts in all applications that people appreciate, the same reason why lot are content even with disabling HT and E cores. Hypothetical Alderlake using Willow Cove and better Turbo is essentially Nehalem.

AMDK11 · Jun 2, 2024

DavidC1 said:
The IPC drop that RWT guys have determined have been in cases where it wasn't due to the cache changes. They verified this.

I agree it's not the exact same core, but the focus on Nehalem was the uncore. The point of Tick/Tock was to minimize risks remember? You minimize risks of new design on the Tick, and change only process. You minimize risks of new process on the Tock with a new design. The addition of SMT itself was a risk as it complicates validation.

The physical world is a world of balances and compromises. The world of CPU design demonstrates this readily. It is between balancing on accelerator-like functions versus enhancing general purpose compute(which also improves workloads that run on accelerators). On top of die size requirements, ease of implementation, and power use.

Integer workloads are a definition of General Purpose Compute. That is the hardest to improve, precisely because the balance has to be done so carefully. It is here where Nehalem's gains are the lowest, because the focus is elsewhere. When you eliminate workloads that are bandwidth bound, benefits from SMT, and turn off Turbo, it's slightly better than a Tick.

If Alderlake was Willow Cove core with Gracemont added on and using Intel 7, yes surely it would have been much faster in many applications but it still would have been disappointing. It is the enhanced architecture that uplifts in all applications that people appreciate, the same reason why lot are content even with disabling HT and E cores. Hypothetical Alderlake using Willow Cove and better Turbo is essentially Nehalem.

Very important changes were, of course, the entire environment (Integrated RAM controller, etc.) around the Nehalem cores. I do not deny. I meant the Nehalem core itself, which was redesigned and expanded, which was also a significant change.

Unless the IPC drop was due to low L2 capacity, the only thing that catches my attention is that many of the increased core buffers were hard-split for SMT, which means that virtually a single thread (ST) was in some cases half which is less than Core 2. Of course, improvements and redesigns mostly eliminated this.

DavidC1 · Jun 2, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
This isn't even a quarter of 2025 PC TAM (which is what, ~275m units?).
Either the parts are too pricey to ramp or they counted lost to AMD slots.

Considering "AI" PCs are going to be Microsoft-endorsed mass spyware with the Copilot+ feature, I'm not gonna miss not having it.

eek2121 · Jun 2, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Considering "AI" PCs are going to be Microsoft-endorsed mass spyware with the Copilot+ feature, I'm not gonna miss not having it.

All that stuff can be turned off.

Ghostsonplanets · Jun 2, 2024

eek2121 said:
All that stuff can be turned off.

MS is infamous for enabling their spyware stuff without user autorization even on Windows Pro device policy client side configured. So who can guarantee that disabling the AI shit is actually disabling it.

From what I have seen on Twitter, not only is Recall a massive potential problem for data theft but also MS is changing the AI and Ads settings policy to make it more obscure to users to disable it.

Who would ever thought that Windows 8 wouldn't be the worst Windows ever. If anything, I miss these times were Windows was a rock solid bug free polished OS and we didn't had to deal with spyware or ads as much as nowadays. Windows 8.1 my beloved...

Edit: Speaking about Intel, if anything, I have to commend them for not shipping the MS Pluton shit so far. AMD and QCOM both quickly adopted it while MTL still doesn't integrate it so far. But maybe that will change with LNL and beyond sadly.

Saylick · Jun 2, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
- On track to become 2nd largest fab by 2030.
- 100 billion of revenue by 2030 for Intel Foundry. 15bn from external customers (currently confirmed) and 85bn from Intel (Product Team, MobileEye, Altera).

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4696592-intel-corporation-intc-presents-goldman-sachs-global-semiconductor-conference-transcript

Wow, so after all that effort to become the 2nd largest fab by 2030, which isn’t hard considering Samsung is floundering thus leaving only 2 players left, Intel says that 85% of their fab revenue is from Intel products and only 15% is from external customers. That’s not a diversified ratio at all.

eek2121 · Jun 2, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
MS is infamous for enabling their spyware stuff without user autorization even on Windows Pro device policy client side configured. So who can guarantee that disabling the AI shit is actually disabling it.

From what I have seen on Twitter, not only is Recall a massive potential problem for data theft but also MS is changing the AI and Ads settings policy to make it more obscure to users to disable it.

Who would ever thought that Windows 8 wouldn't be the worst Windows ever. If anything, I miss these times were Windows was a rock solid bug free polished OS and we didn't had to deal with spyware or ads as much as nowadays. Windows 8.1 my beloved...

Edit: Speaking about Intel, if anything, I have to commend them for not shipping the MS Pluton shit so far. AMD and QCOM both quickly adopted it while MTL still doesn't integrate it so far. But maybe that will change with LNL and beyond sadly.

Group Policy has never failed me. Microsoft won’t touch that because corporations use it for PC management.

DavidC1 · Jun 2, 2024

eek2121 said:
All that stuff can be turned off.

That's an assumption, because since Windows 10, they made it incredibly annoying and difficult to turn off Windows Update without getting the Professional edition. They are well beyond coercing updates now. They are not far away from forcing it.

You can make the argument of needing updates, but there should always be an option. Also treating every user only have two brain cells that barely have time to get off the couch to interact with each other has long-standing consequences.

And even if you can turn it off, can you trust them? How many have the knowledge to disable it truly? Few will, but most don't have a salt grain worth of clue.

Ghostsonplanets said:
Edit: Speaking about Intel, if anything, I have to commend them for not shipping the MS Pluton shit so far. AMD and QCOM both quickly adopted it while MTL still doesn't integrate it so far. But maybe that will change with LNL and beyond sadly.

Wholeheartedly agree.

And the thing was Windows 7 was better. 8/8.1 was a jumbled mess of contradictory UI schemes, a result of being caught not only with it's pants down, but totally naked for many years and only just realizing they were naked.

Windows basically popularized the Icon system, only for Android/iOS to successfully move that to mobile. Ahh, freaking Windows 95 Plus! had a single click icon feature! It would have been perfect. Not the space wasting tiles.

By the way I'd prefer Pluton over Recall, if deciding between dung or piss.

eek2121 · Jun 2, 2024

DavidC1 said:
That's an assumption, because since Windows 10, they made it incredibly annoying and difficult to turn off Windows Update without getting the Professional edition. They are well beyond coercing updates now. They are not far away from forcing it.

You can make the argument of needing updates, but there should always be an option. Also treating every user only have two brain cells that barely have time to get off the couch to interact with each other has long-standing consequences.

And even if you can turn it off, can you trust them? How many have the knowledge to disable it truly? Few will, but most don't have a salt grain worth of clue.

Wholeheartedly agree.

And the thing was Windows 7 was better. 8/8.1 was a jumbled mess of contradictory UI schemes, a result of being caught not only with it's pants down, but totally naked for many years and only just realizing they were naked.

Windows basically popularized the Icon system, only for Android/iOS to successfully move that to mobile. Ahh, freaking Windows 95 Plus! had a single click icon feature! It would have been perfect. Not the space wasting tiles.

By the way I'd prefer Pluton over Recall, if deciding between dung or piss.

Nobody in their right mind should be turning off Windows update, but it is actually very easy to turn off. Windows recall can be turned off in the control panel, though Microsoft makes you turn it on.

Use the group policy editor if you want to permanently turn stuff on and off. You should
NOT attempt to turn off Windows update. You can restrict it to security updates only, but turning it off completely could come back to bite you if a serious vulnerability is discovered.

Markfw · Jun 2, 2024

eek2121 said:
Nobody in their right mind should be turning off Windows update, but it is actually very easy to turn off. Windows recall can be turned off in the control panel, though Microsoft makes you turn it on.

Use the group policy editor if you want to permanently turn stuff on and off. You should
NOT attempt to turn off Windows update. You can restrict it to security updates only, but turning it off completely could come back to bite you if a serious vulnerability is discovered.

The problem for those doing DC work (or other work evernight) when it decides to update, then reboot. sometimes it can totally hose your computer. I want to tel it WHEN (manually) to update. I tried group policy, and I must have the wrong settings, as it still does it.

Wolverine2349 · Jun 2, 2024

Markfw said:
The problem for those doing DC work (or other work evernight) when it decides to update, then reboot. sometimes it can totally hose your computer. I want to tel it WHEN (manually) to update. I tried group policy, and I must have the wrong settings, as it still does it.

It is not possible at all to disable Windows auto update completely on any version of WIN10 from 1803 (I think it was around that version) onwards as they have the Medic service and orchestrator service that turn them back on even if you disable them they start up automatically again.

I believe those services intentionally put it back on and there is really no group policy except pointing to an invalid SUS to reliably disable it.

You need Sledgehammer tool to successfully fully disable Windows updates in later versions of WIN10 and WIN11 and it works perfectly to disable them.

Download Sledgehammer - MajorGeeks

Sledgehammer (formerly WUMT Wrapper Script) is used to launch Windows Update MiniTool and disable Windows Updates until you run it again avoiding unwanted reboots.

www.majorgeeks.com

Works great and no longer have to worry about Windows updates turning features back on that spy on you.

That is really only the reliable way to disable automatic Windows updates on non domain connected PCs no matter WIN10 version even Enterprise.

You can manually download updates and ensure they do not turn back on unwonted features at your own time. Or just not use them at all as long as it is mostly patched and up to date with updates integrated on fresh WIN install. Then be behind a good router/NAT firewall and have good AV software and good user habits and your are more than fine.

adroc_thurston · Jun 2, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Considering "AI" PCs are going to be Microsoft-endorsed mass spyware with the Copilot+ feature, I'm not gonna miss not having it.

That's not the issue.
It's a record slow ramp from Intel, spread across 3 different lineups no less.

Markfw · Jun 2, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
It is not possible at all to disable Windows auto update completely on any version of WIN10 from 1801 (I think it was around that version) onwards as they have the Medic service and orchestrator service that turn them back on.

I believe those services intentionally put it back on and there is really no group policy except pointing to an invalid SUS to reliably disable it.

You need Sledgehammer tool to successfully fully disable Windows updates in later versions of WIN10 and WIN11 and it works perfectly to disable them.

Download Sledgehammer - MajorGeeks

Sledgehammer (formerly WUMT Wrapper Script) is used to launch Windows Update MiniTool and disable Windows Updates until you run it again avoiding unwanted reboots.

www.majorgeeks.com

Works great and no longer have to worry about Windows updates turning features back on that spy on you.

That is really only the reliable way to disable automatic Windows updates on non domain connected PCs no matter WIN10 version even Enterprise.

You can manually download updates and ensure they do not turn back on unwonted features at your own time. Or just not use them at all as long as it is mostly patched. Be behind a good router/NAT firewall and have good AV software and good user habits and your are more than fine.

One note: The boxes that I want to disable it on are used ONLY for DC work, never any browsing. If they got wiped clean, it would be the same nuisance that windows update was.
Thanks for this !

Wolverine2349 · Jun 2, 2024

Markfw said:
One note: The boxes that I want to disable it on are used ONLY for DC work, never any browsing. If they got wiped clean, it would be the same nuisance that windows update was.
Thanks for this !

What is DC work? Domain controller work or does DC stand for something else in this case?

As for browsing just keep browser extensions lite and careful what sites you go to.

gdansk · Jun 2, 2024

Distributed computing

Wolverine2349 · Jun 2, 2024

gdansk said:
Distributed computing

Oh ok gotcha.

Doug S · Jun 2, 2024

Saylick said:
Wow, so after all that effort to become the 2nd largest fab by 2030, which isn’t hard considering Samsung is floundering thus leaving only 2 players left, Intel says that 85% of their fab revenue is from Intel products and only 15% is from external customers. That’s not a diversified ratio at all.

I'm more interested in what the revenue split will be in FY 2030 than I am in what the revenue split will be between today and 2030. Intel simply doesn't have the capacity to serve any decent sized foundry customers now or in the near future. If Apple or Qualcomm or Nvidia came to them tomorrow begging to completely switch out of TSMC for stuff shipping in 2028 Intel would have no choice but to turn them down, because they couldn't come close to handling the volume even one of them drives.

The Ohio based fabs would provide that capacity, but Intel can only build out the capacity they know they have customers for. So we'll be able to see how their 2030 customer base is shaping up by how much fab capacity they actually fully build out in Ohio - not just break ground and build as a shell for future expansion.

Henry swagger · Jun 2, 2024

Can't wait for lion cove and skymont to be revealed 😁🥇.. pat was right unquestioned leadership is here

poke01 · Jun 2, 2024

Henry swagger said:
Can't wait for lion cove and skymont to be revealed 😁🥇.. pat was right unquestioned leadership is here

You know what? If LNC is on par or better! than Zen 5, Intel will be fine on desktop

tamz_msc · Jun 2, 2024

poke01 said:
You know what? If LNC is on par or better! than Zen 5, Intel will be fine on desktop

More than fine TBH.

Exist50 · Jun 2, 2024

AMDK11 said:
He also believed that LionCove belongs to "RoyalCore" and what does that mean?

Fyi, I said the exact opposite. LNC has nothing to do with Royal. That's just more MLID nonsense.

DrMrLordX · Jun 3, 2024

poke01 said:
You know what? If LNC is on par or better! than Zen 5, Intel will be fine on desktop

Isn't Lion Cove only going in low-power chips? Sub 35W? Or is that the basis for Arrow Lake as well?

adroc_thurston · Jun 3, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
Isn't Lion Cove only going in low-power chips? Sub 35W?

No, ARL-S is a thing.

DrMrLordX · Jun 3, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
No, ARL-S is a thing.

Oh I know, but I didn't think it used the same P-cores as Lunar Lake. Dunno why I thought that but oh well. And yes I'm aware that Arrow Lake-U is just Meteor Lake on Intel 3 . . .

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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