Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

adroc_thurston · Jun 4, 2024

gdansk said:
But the team behind Skymont shows that x64 isn't dead. "Throw more decoders at it bro, maybe it'll keep scaling." And lo, it did (so far).

They basically made an x86 Neoverse V3.

controlflow said:
The main issue Intel has is Qualcomm shipping a few months earlier.

1Q earlier, really.

gdansk said:
Anandtech has N3E for the compute tile - is that a typo?

Yeah, Hardwareluxx says N3b.
It's N3b.

gdansk · Jun 4, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
They basically made an x86 Neoverse V3.

Well I like it. Now put 8 in "Arrow Lake N" and sell it at cost.

adroc_thurston · Jun 4, 2024

gdansk said:
Well I like it. Now put 8 in "Arrow Lake N" and sell it at cost.

Gotta wait for a usable in-house node for that. kek.

del42sa · Jun 4, 2024

Interestingly they put 8 ALU to x86 CPU ...

https://wccftech.com/intel-lunar-la...skymont-double-digit-ipc-new-thread-director/

adroc_thurston · Jun 4, 2024

del42sa said:
Interestingly they put 8 ALU to x86 CPU ...

https://wccftech.com/intel-lunar-la...skymont-double-digit-ipc-new-thread-director/

Yeah, SKT is kinda, sorta x86 take on the likes of Neoverse V3/Cortex-X4.
Chungus decode, chungus rename, 8 ALU and have fun.
Dingus 4x128 SIMD too!

H433x0n · Jun 4, 2024

I'm super happy with the results. Lion Cove is definitively mid, Skymont exceeds expectations by a mile. Went from feeling bear-ish about Intel's future to optimistic about the next 2 years.

Intel definitely hangs onto the 1T performance crown for another 2 years.

adroc_thurston · Jun 4, 2024

H433x0n said:
Skymont exceeds expectations by a mile

It's good for a 12Q iteration but perf profile puts it around Z4c aka been-done-before.

gdansk · Jun 4, 2024

Lunar Lake is the only one rumored to have a fanless option so the choice is pretty much made for me. I think it'll be good enough to replace my M1 MBA (if it exists).

adroc_thurston · Jun 4, 2024

gdansk said:
Lunar Lake is the only one rumored to have a fanless option so the choice is pretty much made for me. I think it'll be good enough to replace my M1 MBA (if it exists).

Why not just wait for a new MBA.
Unless you hate macOS like I do.

H433x0n · Jun 4, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
It's good for a 12Q iteration but perf profile puts it around Z4c aka been-done-before.

Huh? It's got better performance clock for clock and will also clock higher.

poke01 · Jun 4, 2024

gdansk said:
Lunar Lake is the only one rumored to have a fanless option so the choice is pretty much made for me. I think it'll be good enough to replace my M1 MBA (if it exists).

Funny thing is battery life is going to be similar between M1 and Lunar. It’s not going be an upgrade in that department

adroc_thurston · Jun 4, 2024

H433x0n said:
It's got better performance clock for clock

A few %% above GLC in specint is where Zen4 and bros dwell.

H433x0n said:
and will also clock higher.

Dingus on PHX2 goes to 3.7 and that's a mobile part.
Please.

Hulk · Jun 4, 2024

Does Lion Cove have HT? Anandtech seems to suggest yes, Tom's no.

adroc_thurston · Jun 4, 2024

Hulk said:
Does Lion Cove have HT? Anandtech seems to suggest yes, Tom's no.

Client variant no.

poke01 · Jun 4, 2024

I think for my laptop upgrade I’m going to wait till the holiday season. It’s either going to be a MacBook Air M3 or Lunar Lake Lenovo.

Depends on what gets revealed at WWDC next week. But for Windows folks only (good luck with Win 11 24H2), Lunar is great.

TitanicFreak · Jun 4, 2024

Hulk said:
Does Lion Cove have HT? Anandtech seems to suggest yes, Tom's no.

It is optional. It can be added but it is removed in Lunar Lake for example.

Ghostsonplanets · Jun 4, 2024

majord said:
Did he not even talk about Arrow lake or did I miss something ? (other than mentioning it before going on about Panther lake)

Guess I'll hit up the slides

Arrow Lake S time is on Innovation Days in September. Same for Battlemage dGPU.

gdansk · Jun 4, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Unless you hate macOS like I do.

I upgraded to dual 4K monitors recently and still want my laptop screen.

poke01 said:
Funny thing is battery life is going to be similar between M1 and Lunar. It’s not going be an upgrade in that department

I'm not too worried! If you're comparing it to M1 that's fantastic.

Hulk · Jun 4, 2024

This is a tough paragraph for me. HT IPC improved by 30%?

This Lion Cove architecture also aligns with performance increases, boasting a predicted double-digit bump in IPC over the older Redwood Cove generation. This uplift is noticed, especially in the betterment of its hyper-threading, whereby improved IPC by 30%, dynamic power efficiency improved by 20%, and previous technologies, in balancing, without increasing the core area, in a commitment of Intel to better performance, within existing physical constraints.

majord · Jun 4, 2024

Wow overwhelming. My personal take aways

(for Lion cove)
- Intel finally ditched the unified scheduler
-Finally moved to process agnostic/portable phy floorplan.

Considering these significant changes , Lion cove isn't bad.. I guess they've been honing this for a while now with the Mont's so it's too surprising . I am probably most surprised at the frequencies in the twitter (?) leak before given the changes, but where are the official numbers? is there an SKU chart? No regression on P core either speaks volumes for N3P , or intel's ability to scale frequency with this

Still confused overall though without seeing the SKU freq's and which have HT which Don't , etc.

Seems peak ST performance will be neck and neck for Zen 5 and Lion cove at the supposed frequencies?

The convergence in IPC and frequency capability of the Two cores, i'm starting to wonder if there's much point. How would a density optimised Lion cove core that tops out at ~4Ghz (yes, i.e like Zen c) compare to Skymont?

-50th edit; would LOVE to see a side by side full uARCH block diagram of Lion vs Sky , hopefully Chips n Cheese does them up soon based off the slides

poke01 · Jun 4, 2024

gdansk said:
I'm not too worried! If you're comparing it to M1 that's fantastic.

Yep, great see M1 level battery life in x86. It’s all in the design.

gdansk · Jun 4, 2024

Hulk said:
This is a tough paragraph for me. HT IPC improved by 30%?

This Lion Cove architecture also aligns with performance increases, boasting a predicted double-digit bump in IPC over the older Redwood Cove generation. This uplift is noticed, especially in the betterment of its hyper-threading, whereby improved IPC by 30%, dynamic power efficiency improved by 20%, and previous technologies, in balancing, without increasing the core area, in a commitment of Intel to better performance, within existing physical constraints.

I couldn't make sense of it either but Saylick explained it

Page 327 - Discussion - Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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poke01 · Jun 4, 2024

gdansk said:
I upgraded to dual 4K monitors recently and still want my laptop screen

lol, the bane of base Mx. limited I/O

Ghostsonplanets · Jun 4, 2024

Wait, I just realized: How TF will Intel sell Arrow Lake-U next year? Lunar Lake is straight up loads better and Skymont E core literally is faster than Redwood Cove P Core on ARL-U. Not even Intel 3 perf/W bump can save it.

From a consumer PoV, it makes no sense to choose such inferior SoC. Unless Intel prices it at mainstream/budget level.

adroc_thurston · Jun 4, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
How TF will Intel sell Arrow Lake-U next year?

That's the neat part. They basically won't.

Ghostsonplanets said:
Unless Intel prices it at mainstream/budget level.

RPL lives!

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