Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

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gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
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I've been having this play in the background and it seems that he's having major issues with his WARM laptops downloading any kind of programming tools (VS, Github). It blocks any downloads of these tools, even after turning off the AV protections. So it seems like there's still some significant teething issues to work through if developer tools can't even be downloaded.
Just Windows things lol
 

poke01

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2022
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he said Prism is not seamless. I think charlie is right on this one. Its windows being windows. IntellJ is not working, no arm java for windows etc
I've been having this play in the background and it seems that he's having major issues with his WARM laptops downloading any kind of programming tools (VS, Github). It blocks any downloads of these tools, even after turning off the AV protections. So it seems like there's still some significant teething issues to work through if developer tools can't even be downloaded.
 
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Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
5,593
8,767
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Just Windows things lol

Yeah, it's Windows, nothing to do with the chipset. They just said they've never had this issue with their x86 laptops. They've also had issues with multiple different types of programs (audio mixing, video editing, etc.) not working right or not opening at all. Seems the emulation process is hit and miss with at least some programs not working at all. WARM just still doesn't seem ready for prime time yet, unfortunately.
 

adroc_thurston

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2023
3,314
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Yeah, it's Windows, nothing to do with the chipset. They just said they've never had this issue with their x86 laptops. They've also had issues with multiple different types of programs (audio mixing, video editing, etc.) not working right or not opening at all. Seems the emulation process is hit and miss with at least some programs not working at all. WARM just still doesn't seem ready for prime time yet, unfortunately.
Same as Rosetta 2 on Mac which genocided ancient DAW stacks and their plugins en masse.
Expected stuff.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
5,593
8,767
136
I've been having this play in the background and it seems that he's having major issues with his WARM laptops downloading any kind of programming tools (VS, Github). It blocks any downloads of these tools, even after turning off the AV protections. So it seems like there's still some significant teething issues to work through if developer tools can't even be downloaded.

He at least got the programming tools to download by using Firefox.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
3,147
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I've been having this play in the background and it seems that he's having major issues with his WARM laptops downloading any kind of programming tools (VS, Github). It blocks any downloads of these tools, even after turning off the AV protections. So it seems like there's still some significant teething issues to work through if developer tools can't even be downloaded.
I told you, he's a good an' honest reviewer.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
3,147
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With regard to emulation- it seems the silicon is good. It's the fault of the software.
Let me split a hair here, the silicon is actually quite good on the x86 emulation front, the team didn’t forget everything they did at Apple but coupled with Windows it, well, ends up sucking. Actually that is a bit unfair, lets just say the end user device sucks and not apportion blame to any one part.
But while x86 emulation is largely a software task – it’s Prism that’s doing a lot of the heavy lifting – there are still certain hardware accommodations that Arm CPU vendors can make to improve x86 performance. And Qualcomm, for its part, has made these. The Oryon CPU cores have hardware assists in place to improve x86 floating point performance. And to address what’s arguably the elephant in the room, Oryon also has hardware accommodations for x86’s unique memory store architecture – something that’s widely considered to be one of Apple’s key advancements in achieving high x86 emulation performance on their own silicon.
 

adroc_thurston

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2023
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It's the fault of the software.
You're not gonna JIT video games or really antique codebases.
Such is the rule of life.

Cool to see another TSO ARM core shipped, tho.
Also TSO isn't unique to x86 per se, some SPARCs shipped with it too iirc.
 

uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
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https://x.com/carygolomb/status/1803182942199611451?t=vzwZIS3IWaSAUDf4rlqw-A&s=19

You know, fundamentally SDXE just seems like an alright chip. I mean the way I'm seeing it, it:

1. Should have higher ST and MT performance with the top end SKUs vs Phoenix, the most common SKU look to perform more in the same area on both ends.

2. Has a larger NPU than Phoenix

3. Can beat Phoenix and MTL on battery life.

But the fact that:

1. Microsoft and Qualcomm have both been hyping this thing for around a year now as almost an M1 moment for x86.

2. The iGPU sucks

3. Qualcomm made claims it must have known would fall flat on it's face extremely quickly (see: every time they tried to compare their iGPU to Intel/AMD when in reality it's not even close to being competitive)

4. The like, year long delay bringing it to market

5. At least on these first devices from Acer and ASUS, battery life gains seem just OK vs existing x86 parts, rather than a revolutionary jump (this is the thing people were really expecting to completely trounce tye x86 dudes)

Has just really soured this launch.
 
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Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
5,593
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https://x.com/carygolomb/status/1803182942199611451?t=vzwZIS3IWaSAUDf4rlqw-A&s=19

You know, fundamentally SDXE just seems like an alright chip. I mean the way I'm seeing it, it:

1. Should have higher ST and MT performance with the top end SKUs vs Phoenix, the most common SKU look to perform more in the same area on both ends.

2. Has a larger NPU than Phoenix

3. Can beat Phoenix and MTL on battery life.

But the fact that:

1. Microsoft and Qualcomm have both been hyping this thing for around a year now as almost an M1 moment for x86.

2. The iGPU didn't suck

3. Qualcomm didn't make claims it must have known would fall flat on it's face extremely quickly (see: every time they tried to compare their iGPU to Intel/AMD when in reality it's not even close to being competitive)

4. The like, year long delay bringing it to market

5. At least on these first devices from Acer and ASUS, battery life gains seem just OK vs existing x86 parts, rather than a revolutionary jump (this is the thing people were really expecting to completely trounce tye x86 dudes)

Has just really soured this launch.

Zen 4 beating X Elite at lower power limits is not something I expected to see. It would be really nice to get another source to verify his results. If this is true, I don’t know what to think about QC’s presented perf/w curves. I always expect some bending of the truth with 1st party data, but this test makes them seem like made up BS.
 

burninatortech4

Senior member
Jan 29, 2014
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It's still early days but this seems super underwhelming. Especially the iGPU. I'm not sold on the utility of an NPU in 2024 (yet). The CPU portion and battery life seems, at best, acceptable.
 
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ikjadoon

Member
Sep 4, 2006
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Some claim the 78 is the "majority" SKU. At least on Best Buy US, here's my quick check:

Plus: 5 models
78: 2 models
80: 10 models
84: 1 models
Elite, but no model #: 3 models (all Surface Pro, which should be the 80)

It looks like it's actually the 80 as the majority SKU (with a 4.0 GHz boost freq.). However, the cheapest 80 model is the Surface Laptop / 16GB RAM / 512GB SSD at $1300. The M3 MBA 13 at 16GB / 512GB is usually $1350 or as low as $1330 (even today). x86 systems with similar enough perf & form factors are easily under $1000.

//

I hope we'll see some Plus vs 78 vs 80 power draw comparisons. Great binning? Or are these simply pre-overclocked and expect worse battery life?

//

Really a shame with no proper reviews on any other models except the ASUS.

But, at the same time looking at Just Josh's long livestream with Lenovo and Samsung models, they have loads of kinks to work out. Even near the end, the laptop suddenly went to sleep → webcam froze after logging back in. The fan still turns on during Zoom + blur background, but remains quiet. Earlier, Qualcomm's own X Elite GPU driver failed to install; when extracted, it suddenly claimed it was the 8CX G3 GPU driver. Sigh.

As these are devices people can actually buy today, I'd agree with Just Josh: unless your use case is contained by only the most popular & native apps and you are ready to be an early adopter (even as this is the 3rd or 4th generation of WoA laptops), double-check the return period and keep expectations in check.

//

I am a little surprised, but in the opposite direction. From October 2023,

Qualcomm CEO Cristiano Amon sounds pumped up just talking about it. “People are going to be incredibly surprised,” he told me, days before the company unveiled the chip at this week’s Snapdragon Summit event in Maui. “It’s the fastest CPU for a laptop, period. Period! It’s faster than anything Apple, anything AMD, anything Intel. But it’s also delivering performance that is faster than the fastest desktop gaming PC from AMD. It’s at the same level as some of the fastest CPUs you can buy from Intel for a gaming rig, one that is liquid-cooled. And we’re doing all of that in a laptop, in a battery-powered device.”

I was quite excited to see more data & reviews today. It's so rare to have a brand-new CPU uArch from a new team actually launch in Windows, but it certainly feels rushed. A few more driver updates + Windows updates + BIOS updates might've done these a lot more good.

But tough to delay a product whose reveal was already 7+ months ago and people are clamoring to buy. The hype cycle (ahem, Cristiano Amon) works both ways.

EDIT: rounding prices appropriately & added an Intel / AMD price comparison.
 
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SarahKerrigan

Senior member
Oct 12, 2014
593
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Why would x86 ever die on Windows platform? It’s an open ecosystem and it certainly won’t ever die on desktop.

Setting aside the question of "open ecosystem" (I don't think it is, and I think ARM is dubious on that front too) - it all comes down to the value proposition. In some hypothetical scenario where Cortex-X is 80% faster than present day in five years, and x86 has not budged, ARM starts to look awfully favorable even with the penalties of dynamic translation.

If one believes AMD and Intel will continue executing on their roadmaps, which I think is likely, that probably won't happen.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
2,941
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Why would x86 ever die on Windows platform? It’s an open ecosystem and it certainly won’t ever die on desktop.
For now at least, but I certainly don't see MS being in a rush to tether themselves to Qualcomm the same way they have been to Intel all these years.

More likely they would wait until QC and software partners did the heavy lifting of making WoA viable in the long term, and then switch to ARM permanently with their own custom SoCs to further follow Apple's business model.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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In some hypothetical scenario where Cortex-X is 80% faster than present day in five years, and x86 has not budged, ARM starts to look awfully favorable even with the penalties of dynamic translation
Anything that isn't already ported to native ARM in five years probably is old enough and unmaintained that it won't be that much of a ballache to emulate anyway.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
2,941
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yeah try, ughh, any video game. ever.
or some EDA stuff.
Dunno about that.

Lots of older games have been ported to ARM on iOS, Android and Switch already.

Nintendo becoming open to more hardcore type 3rd party games for Switch may pay dividends in the future for native games on WoA.
 
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