Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

dullard · Jun 19, 2024

ondma said:
Well, again, you still refuse to recognize the intent of my post, even after I restated it. Lets quit arguing about how much later than Zen 5 ARL will be. I will grant you 3 months later, although I still think considering Intel's execution record that is an optimistic estimate for good availability. Still, I never said how late it will be is the only important factor. If it is later, but performance is a home run, that is acceptable. I will give you my take on the 3 scenarios you posted, and be done with this argument.

1) ARL worse than Zen 5: Intel is in deep trouble in the desktop. I dont see any way you can deny this. Intel will be permanently behind unless they hit a home run or AMD falters.

2) ARL is comparable to Zen 5: Intel will be chronically doomed to be equal at best, and behind with every new AMD release, unless Intel hits a home run at some point. And, no, I dont consider spamming improved E cores for MT benchmarks to be taking the lead in performance. ST and gaming still matter. On that front, BTW, Intel needs something to counter AMD's vCache.

3.) ARL beats Zen 5 (I would add by a significant margin like 10% or so) The best possible case for intel, although still not as desirable as if they came out at the same time or before Zen 5. They will lose a considerable amount of sales to Zen 5 before ARL comes out, but at least they could make up for some of them if ARL is clearly ahead in performance.

Thank you. You have said your part. I listened to it--you have repeatedly stated that Intel is doomed unless Arrow Lake is dominant with a home run.

It isn't that we aren't reading or recognizing your posts. But, I don't even remotely agree with your premises starting with the most easily disproven part: timelines. The financial part of your doom talk is also suspect. Even with extremely inferior nodes compared to TSMC's nodes, Intel still has double the revenue and double the profit of AMD (speaking of full year 2023 numbers). I don't see that as doom--especially since Intel now lets it pick and choose the best node for its chips. AMDs boon of great TSMC performance is no longer exclusive to AMD. Finally, I just don't buy that if company A's products are comparable to company B's products at one point in time, that company A will always be chronically doomed to be equal at best. I can't prove that with links, but it just doesn't make any logical sense that for all time company A is doomed just for being comparable at one moment. Case in point: Look at AMD 10 to 15 years ago. They caught up even though they stumbled and were temporarily behind.

But, since you have provided your scenarios, I will let you be done with the argument, let time play out and hold you to it.

Philste · Jun 20, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Zen 1: Mar 2, 2017
Zen 2: Nov 14, 2019(20 months)
Zen 3: Nov 17, 2020(12 months)
Zen 4: Sep 27, 2022(22 months)
Zen 5: July 31, 2024?(19 months)

Zen1 to Zen 2 would be 32 months in your example (looks like you took 3950X which came later). Zen 4 to Zen 5 is 22 months.

Doug S · Jun 20, 2024

gdansk said:
If we go by quality of information provided Intel shouldn't worry about Apple at all. But Lunar Lake shows they do.

Is Lunar Lake showing that Intel is "worrying" about Apple? Or just the buzz around M1 and Macbook Air's fanless performance showing that there's enough demand for that segment that they should take it more seriously?

I mean, it isn't like Apple hadn't been banging down Intel's doors asking for lower power CPUs for well over a decade - and had moved from PPC in the first place because Motorola was getting out of the game and IBM was focused on workstation level performance! I guess they didn't learn that lesson then, or maybe thought "well those people are buying Macs because they're in the Apple cult not because they like the products" and were caught off guard by all the Wintel customers who saw the M1 Macbook Air and said "why can't I buy a Windows laptop like this one?"

adroc_thurston · Jun 20, 2024

Doug S said:
Is Lunar Lake showing that Intel is "worrying" about Apple?

Yea.

Doug S said:
Or just the buzz around M1 and Macbook Air's fanless performance showing that there's enough demand for that segment that they should take it more seriously?

LNL selling point isn't fanless, or perf.
It's battery life.
Apple's been winning BL metrics by a landslide since late'20 and Intel wants to amend it.
Pretty simple!

Doug S · Jun 20, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Yea.

LNL selling point isn't fanless, or perf.
It's battery life.
Apple's been winning BL metrics by a landslide since late'20 and Intel wants to amend it.
Pretty simple!

If you produce a CPU with M1 level battery life (given the same battery size as a Macbook Air) then it is obvious it will be able to be used in a fanless configuration like the M1 can.

adroc_thurston · Jun 20, 2024

Doug S said:
If you produce a CPU with M1 level battery life (given the same battery size as a Macbook Air) then it is obvious it will be able to be used in a fanless configuration like the M1 can.

Battery life has like about threefiddy correlation with 10W sustained cooling power envelopes!
You can juice 30W into M3 just fine and it'll be great BL still.
It's all SOC/uncore/LP cluster tricks and gimmicks.

Doug S · Jun 20, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Battery life has like about threefiddy correlation with 10W sustained cooling power envelopes!
You can juice 30W into M3 just fine and it'll be great BL still.
It's all SOC/uncore/LP cluster tricks and gimmicks.

C'mon this is elementary physics. Forget CPUs, imagine that the MBA's 50 watt hour battery is powering a light bulb. If Apple makes a light bulb that lasts for 20 hours on that 50 watt hour battery, and Intel makes a light bulb that can do the same, I think you're smart enough to be able to conclude both light bulbs are drawing the same amount of power and therefore radiate the same amount of heat.

adroc_thurston · Jun 20, 2024

Doug S said:
C'mon this is elementary physics. Forget CPUs, imagine that the MBA's 50 watt hour battery is powering a light bulb. If Apple makes a light bulb that lasts for 20 hours on that 50 watt hour battery, and Intel makes a light bulb that can do the same, I think you're smart enough to be able to conclude both light bulbs are drawing the same amount of power and therefore radiate the same amount of heat.

?
Apple BL advantage is brutally efficient LITTLEs, fabric and the rest of uncore.
nT PPT is not very related to that.
MBAs don't draw 10W sustained in relevant BL tests.

TwistedAndy · Jun 20, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Apple BL advantage is brutally efficient LITTLEs, fabric and the rest of uncore.

Yes.

In general, battery life depends on a lot of factors like screen brightness, Wi-Fi and SSD activity, power policy, etc. The SoC power consumption is only one of them

For example, a 4K screen in Dell XPS 17 can draw up to 13.73W at full brightness.

SiliconFly · Jun 20, 2024

DavidC1 said:
... Arctic Wolf is going to make it obsolete.

After silvermont, goldmont, tremont, gracemont, crestmont & skymont, now they're ditching the -mont and going with a completely new naming scheme -wolf. This actually means something.

Also, we already know Nova Lake is getting Arctic Wolf E cores, but not much details on the Nova Lake P cores. This too means something.

The time frame fits perfectly. I now strongly feel Arctic Wolf is actually the rumored Royal Core. And there's something strange going on with the Nova Lake P cores. Rentable Units?

jur said:
Pantherlake is supposed to launch in 2025 on 18A...

Panther Lake is mobile only. Desktop will still be Arrow Lake refresh with Lion Cove!

dullard said:
...especially since Intel now lets it pick and choose the best node for its chips. AMDs boon of great TSMC performance is no longer exclusive to AMD.

This part is true.

But honestly, Intel is not out of the woods yet!

Nothingness · Jun 20, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Battery life has like about threefiddy correlation with 10W sustained cooling power envelopes!
You can juice 30W into M3 just fine and it'll be great BL still.
It's all SOC/uncore/LP cluster tricks and gimmicks.

I guess @Doug S meant SoC, not CPU. At least that's how I read it.

DavidC1 · Jun 20, 2024

Doug S said:
C'mon this is elementary physics. Forget CPUs, imagine that the MBA's 50 watt hour battery is powering a light bulb. If Apple makes a light bulb that lasts for 20 hours on that 50 watt hour battery, and Intel makes a light bulb that can do the same, I think you're smart enough to be able to conclude both light bulbs are drawing the same amount of power and therefore radiate the same amount of heat.

@adroc_thurston is right though.

Battery life metrics are bursty scenarios for the reason that load is pretty much battery size/average peak power. In load, the ideal battery life CPU is a 2W single core E core chip, but you are much more limited in what you can do so the TDP is higher.

Then how low the idle power is and how often you can stay there is basically the metric of battery life. That's why things like ISA flat out don't matter.
,
So theoretically you can have a 100W TDP CPU but idle power management so good that you can have 2.5W screen-on power on video playback or WiFi. That's 20 hours using a 50WHr battery.

In contrast the older pre-Medfield Atoms had 5W standby like pre-Haswell devices so with a 3W TDP chip you had 10 hour battery doing absolutely nothing.

poke01 · Jun 20, 2024

https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/s/h3Jz16IkQo

And here it is. This here lasted 2 days. I imagine best buy will also get a lot of returns. In Australia, JB-Hi-Fi had $200 AUD gift cards for preorders and I never seen them offer that for any Intel/AMD/Apple laptop. I do hope more reviews come out.

Students will also need x86 especially CS.

Looks it’s a very rocky road ahead

SpudLobby · Jun 20, 2024

Doug S said:
Is Lunar Lake showing that Intel is "worrying" about Apple?

Yes.

However, I don’t fully agree with the other posters that the Performance cores are just generic in this and don’t matter etc.

Apple’s stuff is still about the P cores too. Apple can pull great ST that AMD and Intel can’t below 10W. Even M4 in total device power minus idle on the iPad was 11W.

3800 for 11W.

So that does matter and helps — people like that about M-series Macs — a fan isn’t going to go nuts real easily and responsiveness is high without hitting battery life which yes it will hurt if you’re sucking down 2.5x the power just in general mixed office use to keep responsiveness.

Or you can gut responsiveness a bit to compete which is probably what Intel will end up doing often with Skymont in LNL, just to a more tolerable degree than anything before. Intel is already saying LNL does MTL ST at half the power (SoC level power and presumably talking about LNC). That’s… a big improvement depending on where they took the measurement from, but still nothing Apple-tier keeping in mind MTL doing like 2000-2400 GB6 @ 18-25W. Will they get more than that MTL at the same old 20-25W stuff? Probably, which is going to be funny when M4 does 30%+ more in ST at half the power. and even M3 P cores sound like they’ll take LNL to the woodshed. If anyone thinks LNL is going to even pull a 3200 GB6 at 9W, speak now — I’d love to be wrong lmfao.

However as another poster points out, it’s true the MT power/w advantage at higher power levels is not that high or at least seems to vary and I suspect Strix for example will put AMD in a decent place.

Doug S said:
Or just the buzz around M1 and Macbook Air's fanless performance showing that there's enough demand for that segment that they should take it more seriously?

I mean, yes? That’s the same thing in some ways. But it’s not really about fanless alone. LNL wins will absolutely be majority fan laptops, just much better performance without making the fans kick in, and longer battery life.

Doug S said:
I mean, it isn't like Apple hadn't been banging down Intel's doors asking for lower power CPUs for well over a decade - and had moved from PPC in the first place because Motorola was getting out of the game and IBM was focused on workstation level performance!

Doug S said:
I guess they didn't learn that lesson then, or maybe thought "well those people are buying Macs because they're in the Apple cult not because they like the products" and were caught off guard by all the Wintel customers who saw the M1 Macbook Air and said "why can't I buy a Windows laptop like this one?"

I told you this was a thing a while ago. Apple makes good chips, and it really isn’t just the MBA. This is 75% of why MS wants to hedge with QC and MediaTek/NV more than the cope from dumb leakers in this forum about faddishness (though there is that element lol).

static shock · Jun 20, 2024

Skymont is a Marvel, Lion Cove no.

Lion Cover targets to be 50% more IPC over Golden Cove. Yeah here we will have an Apple Killer. The 20A saves LNC to be a Power Hungry beast.

Skymont IPC is not far from Lion Cove IPC, the proper Intel Graphs don't lie about it.

lightisgood · Jun 20, 2024

poke01 said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/s/h3Jz16IkQo

And here it is. This here lasted 2 days. I imagine best buy will also get a lot of returns. In Australia, JB-Hi-Fi had $200 AUD gift cards for preorders and I never seen them offer that for any Intel/AMD/Apple laptop. I do hope more reviews come out.

Students will also need x86 especially CS.

Looks it’s a very rocky road ahead

I would like to observe the Pluton security hole following the compatibility problem...

Qualcomm AI/Copilot PCs don’t live up to the hype

Qualcomm’s new AI/Copilot PCs has overwhelming hype but their actions point to a far murkier picture.

www.semiaccurate.com

SiliconFly · Jun 20, 2024

static shock said:
...Lion Cover targets to be 50% more IPC over Golden Cove

Are you serious? Any known good sources?

The best leaks I've come across from kinda reliable/decent sources, put it around a disappointing 15% to 20% over GLC at best! Not very inspiring.

static shock · Jun 20, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Are you serious? Any known good sources?

It targets. In reality i don't know even if Intel 20A is more power efficient than TSMC 3nm flavours.

static shock · Jun 20, 2024

Skymont haves near Golden Cove IPC, it will be marvelous in a 8P+16E config.

Henry swagger · Jun 20, 2024

AMDK11 said:
Moreover, the

Ie

static shock said:
Skymont is a Marvel, Lion Cove no.

Lion Cover targets to be 50% more IPC over Golden Cove. Yeah here we will have an Apple Killer. The 20A saves LNC to be a Power Hungry beast.

Skymont IPC is not far from Lion Cove IPC, the proper Intel Graphs don't lie about it.

I think lion cove will be 25% plus over raptor cove with avx512 plus 3nm l2

Elfear · Jun 20, 2024

Henry swagger said:
I think lion cove will be 25% plus over raptor cove with avx512 plus 3nm l2

Even with a likely clock regression?

Henry swagger · Jun 20, 2024

Elfear said:
Even with a likely clock regression?

I think the leaks suggest it hits 5.7ghz.. people can oc it

Elfear · Jun 20, 2024

Henry swagger said:
I think the leaks suggest it hits 5.7ghz.. people can oc it

6.1Ghz --> 5.7Ghz is still a ~7% regression. If you're expecting Lion Cove to be 25% faster than Raptor Cove, that would be a 32% IPC increase if rumored clocks end up being true (ST performance that is). I'm hoping LC brings good IPC gains but 32% seems REALLY optimistic.

SpudLobby · Jun 20, 2024

Elfear said:
6.1Ghz --> 5.7Ghz is still a ~7% regression. If you're expecting Lion Cove to be 25% faster than Raptor Cove, that would be a 32% IPC increase if rumored clocks end up being true (ST performance that is). I'm hoping LC brings good IPC gains but 32% seems REALLY optimistic.

We’ve already seen it lol geomean 14%

Elfear · Jun 20, 2024

SpudLobby said:
We’ve already seen it lol geomean 14%

Exactly, but there is discussion that Lion Cove in Arrow Lake will see significant performance gains over Lion Cove in Lunar Lake. I'm rather skeptical but I'd like to understand why other folks may feel that way.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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