Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Hitman928 · Wednesday at 12:23 PM

Gideon said:
Yeah, my bad you compared absolute perf (as did WFFC)

I chose 165U / 1360P particularily as they clock very close to the Lunar Lake sample (on average) and are lower TDP parts.

I agree your comparison makes more sense, my post was just in response to the comparison WFFCtech did, which of course used the 185H.

FlameTail · Wednesday at 12:36 PM

Will Panther Lake be 18A of 18A-P ?

Magio · Wednesday at 12:58 PM

The single core score is quite good and in line with what I expected, the MT score is not as impressive. That's in line with a good 165U result. Probably at lower power as the 165U's that score in that range probably are those with a higher TDP but still, +/-12k is what I was hoping to see. Early results, but let's see.

Gideon · Wednesday at 1:29 PM

Magio said:
The single core score is quite good and in line with what I expected, the MT score is not as impressive. That's in line with a good 165U result. Probably at lower power as the 165U's that score in that range probably are those with a higher TDP but still, +/-12k is what I was hoping to see. Early results, but let's see.

IMO considering Lunar Lake TDP and 8c/8t corecount, it's very impressive, it's probably TDP limited. 165U has 12 cores and 14 threads and a 57W power limit for all core loads.

Magio · Wednesday at 1:41 PM

Gideon said:
IMO considering Lunar Lake TDP and 8c/8t corecount, it's very impressive, it's probably TDP limited. 165U has 12 cores and 14 threads and a 57W power limit for all core loads.

For me I'd say it depends, if it does 10K MT while truly sticking to its 17W PL1, then that's OK if not super impressive, but if it needs to gets close to its 30W PL2 to achieve that then that's a disappointment. A fanless M3 or even M2 can get that score with the same core count.

dttprofessor · Wednesday at 2:03 PM

Magio said:
For me I'd say it depends, if it does 10K MT while truly sticking to its 17W PL1, then that's OK if not super impressive, but if it needs to gets close to its 30W PL2 to achieve that then that's a disappointment. A fanless M3 or even M2 can get that score with the same core count.

M1 7700 15W
M2 8700 20W
M3 10395 17W

4 skymont cores is enough for 90% apps, except game.

Magio · Wednesday at 2:12 PM

dttprofessor said:
M1 7700 15W
M2 8700 20W
M3 10395 17W

If you check on Geekbench, plenty of M2 Macbook Airs score 10k MT. M3 can go as far as push 12k in a fanless design.

TwistedAndy · Wednesday at 2:20 PM

I think the retail Lunar Lake devices will show the results closer to the Intel charts (~14% faster than Meteor Lake on average):

Magio said:
If you check on Geekbench, plenty of M2 Macbook Airs score 10k MT. M3 can go as far as push 12k in a fanless design.

The Geekbench 6 MT test is garbage.

Magio · Wednesday at 2:26 PM

TwistedAndy said:
The Geekbench 6 MT test is garbage.

I'm not the biggest fan of Geekbench, don't get me wrong. Usually I put a lot more weight on Cinebench, but really no benchmark is perfect.

However right now all we have is this Geekbench score and it's basically a "worst" case scenario in MT, only matching 165U. Hopefully we'll see better scores later and it'll do better in Cinebench.

dttprofessor · Wednesday at 2:45 PM

Magio said:
If you check on Geekbench, plenty of M2 Macbook Airs score 10k MT. M3 can go as far as push 12k in a fanless design.

My zenbook14 155H ,12000 40W ,it's not so good, but it can last 6-10hours.
The LNL should be 10K 20-25w, the purpose of intel is lower temperature & 10+ hours even in a 1KG laptop.

coercitiv · Wednesday at 3:23 PM

Magio said:
+/-12k is what I was hoping to see.

Here's Alder Lake @ 5Ghz in 8P/8T config getting 12K.

Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D25 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D25 with an Intel Core i7-12700K processor.

browser.geekbench.com

Magio said:
For me I'd say it depends, if it does 10K MT while truly sticking to its 17W PL1, then that's OK if not super impressive, but if it needs to gets close to its 30W PL2 to achieve that then that's a disappointment.

Out of curiosity, I ran the test a second time with HWInfo running, watching CPU package power. One MT test went to ~116W (PL2 is 120W), another to ~90W and most others hovered around 60W and few even lower than that. I think I saw one with 45W. From a power perspective Geekbench is not pushing the chips at all.

In fact, it just dawned on me as I typed this, I can test at lower power ceilings. 30W might mess up boosting algo on my 12700K, but 45W is definitely doable and will not affect ST score either.

And the MT score for 8P/8T Golden Cove @ PL1=PL2=45W is.... drumroll... lights moving... 10K!

Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D25 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D25 with an Intel Core i7-12700K processor.

browser.geekbench.com

I think it's safe to say LNL does not need 30W for a 10K score. Now excuse me while I go get my desktop config back...

mikk · Wednesday at 3:49 PM

Magio said:
I'm not the biggest fan of Geekbench, don't get me wrong. Usually I put a lot more weight on Cinebench, but really no benchmark is perfect.

However right now all we have is this Geekbench score and it's basically a "worst" case scenario in MT, only matching 165U. Hopefully we'll see better scores later and it'll do better in Cinebench.

If 165U matches this core it needs more power. LNL 17W will be 20-35% faster than 165U 15W depending on the MT benchmark. Having only 8 threads won't give exciting MT results but that's not the main thing of LNL. Main thing for most consumers will be battery life/energy consumption in idle and small loads which will help everyone running in battery mode. Also iGPU performance is a big improvement in this TPD range.

DavidC1 · Wednesday at 7:36 PM

DavidC1 said:
Estimating clocks for the Skymont cluster in Lunar Lake.

SpecInt scales at about 90% relative to clocks. With 38% gain in uarch, at the same power we're at about 3.1GHz and at max performance it's at 3.7GHz for single thread, compared to max 2.5GHz for Crestmont LPE.

For the MT version, Intel claims 2.9x with 2x the cores. Core count scaling is similar for the most part at about 90%, so it leaves 53% for uarch+clocks. That leaves us at 10% higher clocks for Skymont cluster with 2x the core count at the same power as MTL LPE, while having 38%/68% per clock gain. Quite impressive!

Hah, looks like I got the peak clocks for Lunarlake E core correct!

So Lunarlake is where the E core not only covers MT performance but works very efficient at lower load workloads.

Goop_reformed · Wednesday at 7:44 PM

So what's the consensus for Lion Cove/Lunar Lake. Is it good or another MTL situation

Thunder 57 · Wednesday at 8:50 PM

Should be good for its role. That is low power, long battery life, better than expeted performance for its power use.

csbin · Wednesday at 10:24 PM

LNL 17W vs 30W

https://twitter.com/x/status/1805718733207298541

poke01 · Wednesday at 11:10 PM

Wow, Lunar is amazing in gpu performance

Henry swagger · Wednesday at 11:11 PM

csbin said:
LNL 17W vs 30W

https://twitter.com/x/status/1805718733207298541

View attachment 101965

Faster than m2 and 5% behide the m3 in single core in geekbench 5.. m3 is 12% faster in multicore.. impressive lion cove looks good 😁

Henry swagger · Wednesday at 11:18 PM

https://twitter.com/x/status/1806157105814200820

Battlemage looks excellent.. tsmc nodes are perfect for low power performance.. arrow lake hx will be even better 🙂

poke01 · Wednesday at 11:22 PM

Amazing what a good node along with good design does huh?

FlameTail · Wednesday at 11:47 PM

LNL GPU at 30W matches the X Elite GPU at 30W in Wildlife Extreme. Nice.

Are there Steel Nomad Light numbers?

trivik12 · Thursday at 12:37 AM

Henry swagger said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1806157105814200820
Battlemage looks excellent.. tsmc nodes are perfect for low power performance.. arrow lake hx will be even better 🙂

But Arrow Lake has Alchemist+ and not BMG.

poke01 · Thursday at 1:47 AM

trivik12 said:
But Arrow Lake has Alchemist+ and not BMG.

Why is discrete battlemage coming next year? Or is late Q4? Issues with scaling?

majord · Thursday at 3:38 AM

Must be Cinebench R20?

Magio · Thursday at 3:57 AM

I don't know about all of you, but for me those early scores make it clear why Intel wasn't bragging about benchmarks in their reveal at Computex... We're talking about OK-to-good results at best for now.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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