Intel processors crashing Unreal engine games (and others)

DAPUNISHER · Jul 24, 2024

Kocicak said:
You posted just his old video, you probably wanted to post the new one or both.

No, I never intended to post the new one. I posted one of his vids on the topic months back and regret it. He has no integrity or journalistic ethics. He will do or say anything for money. He needs to take some of his shillions of dollars and go to fat camp instead of playing the sympathy card over his health issues with the audience. And using it as an excuse why his bumbling sidekicks were making content that shilled so hard, and was so incompetent, that he had to respond while recovering from surgery.

And 5 will get you 10 he managed to shill one of his main sponsors during this latest "Intel is bad, because everyone is mad at them. Nevermind I produced content about how I switched to a 14900K because Intel just works" That's how shameless he is, he will turn every opportunity into sponsored content.

Joe NYC · Jul 24, 2024

Another article on Tom's. They just recap points from Igor's lab, apparently coming from Intel:

Here's a snippet of the purportedly leaked communications given to Igor's Lab:

– Intel observes a significant increase to the minimum operating voltage (Vmin) across multiple cores on returned affected processors from customers.
– This increase is similar in outcome to parts subjected to elevated voltage and temperature conditions for reliability testing.
– Factors contributing to this Vmin increase include elevated voltage, high frequency, and elevated temperature.
– Even under idle conditions at relatively cool temperatures, sporadic elevated voltages are observed when the processor is resumed from low power states in order to service background operations before entering a low power state again.
– At a sufficiently high voltage, these short-duration events can accumulate over time, contributing to the increase in Vmin.
– Intel analysis indicates a need to reduce the maximum voltage requested by the processor in order to reduce or eliminate accumulated exposure to voltages which may result in an increase to Vmin.
– While Intel has confirmed elevated voltages impact the increase in Vmin, investigation continues in order to fully understand root cause and address other potential aspects of this issue.
––Intel—

Leaked internal reports allegedly reveal Intel's instability problems are not over — elevated voltages could be only one of the causes of CPU crashing

Intel purportedly doesn't know if the mid-August microcode update will fully rectify Raptor Lake's stability issues.

www.tomshardware.com

Rigg · Jul 24, 2024

I gave up on Jay like 4 years ago. I was subscribed, and watched his videos here and there, but quickly realized the dude doesn't have anywhere near the expertise he thinks he does. Wasn't he the moron who was ranting about stock voltage being too high on a motherboard that he clearly had LN2 mode enabled on? I remember hearing about the shill content his underlings put out when he was having health issues. He can pound sand with his faux consumer advocacy. What a clown.

Ranulf · Jul 24, 2024

Jay is well, Jay. The gpu review his team did last year was pretty bad. I vaguely remember him saying around 2018 or so that he dropped doing a ryzen OC build because the case he was gonna use had a closed front so no airflow, so why not change cases? Who knows. But I think my favorite was this sillyness, from 8 years ago... took me a few minutes to find it. Time queued up at best part... the drilling of the mobo for a water cooler block.

As for TYC's view on the intel stuff, his explanation may not be the best but he seemed to trust his source who mentioned it to him at computex.

Rigg · Jul 24, 2024

Ranulf said:
I think my favorite was this sillyness, from 8 years ago... took me a few minutes to find it. Time queued up at best part... the drilling of the mobo for a water cooler block.

The Haha reaction i gave your post was insufficient.

Ranulf · Jul 24, 2024

Rigg said:
The Haha reaction i gave your post was insufficient.

Heh. "I thought I was on LinusTechTips for a second."

In2Photos · Jul 24, 2024

I think Jay is extremely entertaining. And he can build some beautiful machines.

coercitiv · Jul 25, 2024

Der8auer jumps on the bandwagon with a reaction video for clicks... I'm kidding he has a short video with a very nice explanation about how via oxidation works. He also concludes with a common sense request: Intel must find ways to maximize the number of customers who are made aware of the microcode issue.

Fun fact, chips affected by oxidation never stood a chance: not only did oxidation accelerate aging, it also provided the perfect catalyst for the erroneous high voltage to wreak havoc through the die. What a perfect storm.

poke01 · Jul 25, 2024

coercitiv said:
Der8auer jumps on the bandwagon with a reaction video for clicks... I'm kidding he has a short video with a very nice explanation about how via oxidation works. He also concludes with a common sense request: Intel must find ways to maximize the number of customers who are made aware of the microcode issue.

Fun fact, chips affected by oxidation never stood a chance: not only did oxidation accelerate aging, it also provided the perfect catalyst for the erroneous high voltage to wreak havoc through the die. What a perfect storm.

can you imagine if TSMC had these fab issues?

It would impact so many companies.

Joe NYC · Jul 25, 2024

When Digital Foundry is considering switching to AMD CPUs, we are in the "hell freezing over" territory:

One of the hosts, who has one of the affected / degraded 13900K CPUs, that he is downclocking etc, to keep it from crashing.

coercitiv · Jul 25, 2024

Ranulf said:
As for TYC's view on the intel stuff, his explanation may not be the best but he seemed to trust his source who mentioned it to him at computex.

I should mention I never contested the experience he was having with that 13900K system, I just disagree with the poorly documented diagnosis. Even if we trust TYC and he trusts the source, the message was lost in translation. There's nothing of substance for us to work with.

coercitiv · Jul 25, 2024

Joe NYC said:
When Digital Foundry is considering switching to AMD CPUs, we are in the "hell freezing over" territory:

I'm having a lot of fun with this "me too" movement. Surprising how many journalists had major issues with their 13900K/14900K and they kept mostly quiet.

Wendel gave voice to so many vulnerable journalists!

coercitiv · Jul 25, 2024

poke01 said:
can you imagine if TSMC had these fab issues?

can you imagine TSMC having such issue and covering it up for 1 year or more?

gorobei · Jul 25, 2024

coercitiv said:
I'm having a lot of fun with this "me too" movement. Surprising how many journalists had major issues with their 13900K/14900K and they kept mostly quiet.

Wendel gave voice to so many vulnerable journalists!

Wendell talked about some of the psychology on the MLID interview.

whether a server provider or game dev, no single company is going to stick their neck out by trumpeting out how badly their systems are failing if no one else has said anything similar. that's just you proclaiming your people are incompetent and could affect the stock price.

(journalists are in a similar boat. though part of the hesitancy probably comes from years of new releases and being able to call intel/nv/etc to find out if they were messing something up.)

the warframe devs came out with the pie chart 2 days before his initial video. once they and alderon had confirmation by Wendell weeding out all possible issues (updates/configuration/software) did the dam start to break. he was cranking thru all the possible factors to eliminate any other explanations for 3 to 4 months.

50% of the chips he has data/access to were affected. 50% of that (so 25% of the total) had minor errors that would only show up as a graphical glitch in a game. the other 25% would throw out all kinds of behavior under varying conditions. all core loads were actually stable, but other lesser loads would throw a fit.

coercitiv · Jul 25, 2024

gorobei said:
Wendell talked about some of the psychology on the MLID interview.

Agree with you when it comes to data centers or game dev, but with journalists the tune is somewhat different. Part of journalism is investigation, probably the best part too. Maybe it will be worth to develop this topic later, after the Intel problems reach some kind of resolution.

gorobei · Jul 25, 2024

coercitiv said:
Agree with you when it comes to data centers or game dev, but with journalists the tune is somewhat different. Part of journalism is investigation, probably the best part too. Maybe it will be worth to develop this topic later, after the Intel problems reach some kind of resolution.

i dont excuse them, but in terms of the delay in entertaining the possibility of an issue we really havent seen a screw up this big in a while.

how many years did charlie at semiaccurate have to scream about intel and its 14nm to 10nm problems before everyone was dogpiling in on the +++ jokes. there is an inertia to thought processes and benefit of the doubt plays in. when you see tiny fecal pellets you first think rabbit, not elephant.

all i'm saying is there is a timeframe for evidence to build up before you put on the hard hitting investigative expose hat. i dont know what the range is.
(my last words on the topic)

KompuKare · Jul 25, 2024

Joe NYC said:
Another article on Tom's. They just recap points from Igor's lab, apparently coming from Intel:

Here's a snippet of the purportedly leaked communications given to Igor's Lab:

– Intel observes a significant increase to the minimum operating voltage (Vmin) across multiple cores on returned affected processors from customers.
– This increase is similar in outcome to parts subjected to elevated voltage and temperature conditions for reliability testing.
– Factors contributing to this Vmin increase include elevated voltage, high frequency, and elevated temperature.
– Even under idle conditions at relatively cool temperatures, sporadic elevated voltages are observed when the processor is resumed from low power states in order to service background operations before entering a low power state again.
– At a sufficiently high voltage, these short-duration events can accumulate over time, contributing to the increase in Vmin.
– Intel analysis indicates a need to reduce the maximum voltage requested by the processor in order to reduce or eliminate accumulated exposure to voltages which may result in an increase to Vmin.
– While Intel has confirmed elevated voltages impact the increase in Vmin, investigation continues in order to fully understand root cause and address other potential aspects of this issue.
––Intel—

Leaked internal reports allegedly reveal Intel's instability problems are not over — elevated voltages could be only one of the causes of CPU crashing

Intel purportedly doesn't know if the mid-August microcode update will fully rectify Raptor Lake's stability issues.

www.tomshardware.com

Igor did joking talk about copy and pasters of anything he says on comments to the previous news items on igorlabs.de, and basically said he had to wait with the internal leak:

Intel will jetzt eine Lösung für die Probleme der Raptor Lake CPUs der 13. und 14. Generation gefunden haben. Wirklich?

Fast genau eine Woche vor AMDs Launch der neuen Ryzen CPUs rückt sich auch Intel noch einmal ins Rampenlicht und veröffentlich ein Statement, welches wir erst als solches einmal so stehen lassen, weil es leider immer noch Fragen offen lässt und auf weitere Untersuchungen verweist. Am Ende ist es...

www.igorslab.de

As for tech journalists: most are afraid of big PR machines, their access to internal contacts, and far too ready to do as they are told. And speaking of Charlie any serious tech journalist will know what was his reward for awkward questions and constant digging to expose Nvidia's Bumbgate. Too many awkward questions can make you a persona non grata.

NTMBK · Jul 25, 2024

Joe NYC said:
When Digital Foundry is considering switching to AMD CPUs, we are in the "hell freezing over" territory:

One of the hosts, who has one of the affected / degraded 13900K CPUs, that he is downclocking etc, to keep it from crashing.

Nah, hell only freezes over when they switch away from Nvidia GPUs

biostud · Jul 25, 2024

Since so many professionals are running standard desktop processors, doesn't the longevity of the socket matter to them?

I would have thought that they also could keep their overall cost down, by simple CPU upgrades?

Goop_reformed · Jul 25, 2024

biostud said:
Since so many professionals are running standard desktop processors, doesn't the longevity of the socket matter to them?

I would have thought that they also could keep their overall cost down, by simple CPU upgrades?

Cheaper, and the intel hedt chips are all crap atm.

KompuKare · Jul 25, 2024

I suspect that for Intel socket shortevity always had 2.5 objectives:
1. Keep Intel's older foundries busy (also see Atom for at least a decade after inception)
2. Keep OEMs happy with something new to sell.
2.5 match each CPU gen to an exact chipset gen, and have less work doing firmware updates.

igor_kavinski · Jul 25, 2024

KompuKare said:
I suspect that for Intel socket shortevity always had 2.5 objectives:
1. Keep Intel's older foundries busy (also see Atom for at least a decade after inception)
2. Keep OEMs happy with something new to sell.
2.5 match each CPU gen to an exact chipset gen, and have less work doing firmware updates.

Maybe 0.5 to make that 3 objectives would be to keep the chipset team busy. I bet the AMD chipset team has a lot less work to do than the ones at Intel and also a lot less time spent trying to invent "new" stuff for the next chipset family.

SteinFG · Jul 25, 2024

The easiest explanation is probably the right one - they just put themselves on a cadence. That's it. Every 2 years, develop a socket for the next 2 years of CPUs. Big companies love boring cadence.

igor_kavinski · Jul 25, 2024

SteinFG said:
The easiest explanation is probably the right one - they just put themselves on a cadence.

But the driving motivation behind it is purely profit because they make both the CPU and the chipset.

Det0x · Jul 25, 2024

Since we are already speaking about Jay2Cents in this thread, he just released a new video.. But this time it actually had some substance

Performance with unlimited power which reviewers have been using in comparion-charts for the last two years: (all auto bios settings)
41273 points in Cinebench R23 @ 341w packet power

Performance with updated bios which followes the new "intel stock power limits"
37574 points in Cinebench R23 @ 253w packet power

Now we have to wait for the next bios update to check for how and if that one also affects the performance

Intel processors crashing Unreal engine games (and others)

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