Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

inf64 · Jul 25, 2024

H433x0n said:
You're right, the test suite they used is much better than what AMD presented for Zen 5 IPC calculation. If you used that same test suite to calculate IPC for Zen 5, who knows if you actually get a 16% average.

David Huang is running Spec test on Granite Ridge as we speak, so it won't be long now.

ondma · Jul 25, 2024

CouncilorIrissa said:
I don't know why anyone would expect anything else other than marginal ST uplift. Intel 7 is many things, but it allowed Intel to clock their CPUs incredibly high. Finding a large ST uplift was always going to be an uphill battle.

It ia a "new" core, with HT removed, supposedly to give a higher ST boost. That is why I consider the ST gain disappointing. The problem is they are working against a clock speed "offset", so if they had eked out another 5% IPC gain it would have almost doubled the final performance gain.
14% - 8% = 6%
19% - 8% = 11%
The comparison that counts, though, is how the performance stacks up against Zen 5. All the instabilities in 13 and 14 gens are proving they are clocked at unrealistic levels to get higher performance. The real issue though, is that I think ARL will lose to Zen 5 in ST and maybe match it at best in nT. Even worse, is that the next gen for Intel is simply a refresh of ARL, so it wont do much to catch up. Maybe they can at least increase the clock speeds a bit. I see Intel pretty much permanently behind AMD on the desktop unless they hit a home run somewhere. ARL certainly was not it.

As for nT, if the gain is around 15%, i think that is acceptable. I still dont understand the Intel supporters who somehow thought ARL was going to dominate Zen 5 in nT tasks after giving up HT.

H433x0n · Jul 25, 2024

ondma said:
It ia a "new" core, with HT removed, supposedly to give a higher ST boost. That is why I consider the ST gain disappointing. The problem is they are working against a clock speed "offset", so if they had eked out another 5% IPC gain it would have almost doubled the final performance gain.
14% - 8% = 6%
19% - 8% = 11%

I don't get the point of using 14900KS as the bar unless you want to put ARL's performance in the worst light possible. It's not a -KS SKU, it's a -K SKU.

ondma said:
The real issue though, is that I think ARL will lose to Zen 5 in ST and maybe match it at best in nT. Even worse, is that the next gen for Intel is simply a refresh of ARL, so it wont do much to catch up. Maybe they can at least increase the clock speeds a bit. I see Intel pretty much permanently behind AMD on the desktop unless they hit a home run somewhere. ARL certainly was not it.

This is my 14900K in GB6, it's not overclocked or running some insane memory configuration just basic DDR5-6400. This is *really* close to what we've seen from Zen 5 so far. ARL doesn't have to do much to match Zen 5 in 1T performance, the bar it has to clear is to not be a regression.

ondma · Jul 25, 2024

H433x0n said:
I don't get the point of using 14900KS as the bar unless you want to put ARL's performance in the worst light possible. It's not a -KS SKU, it's a -K SKU.

This is my 14900K in GB6, it's not overclocked or running some insane memory configuration just basic DDR5-6400. This is *really* close to what we've seen from Zen 5 so far. ARL doesn't have to do much to match Zen 5 in 1T performance, the bar it has to clear is to not be a regression.

That is only one benchmark though. I saw CB R23 benchmarks that showed 14900K very close to Zen 4 and Zen 5 with a significant lead over both.

I agree though, we have to wait for final production samples from both camps and look at a wide variety of benchmarks. The thing I dont like though, is that Intel gave up HT, supposedly to enhance ST performance, but the gains being seen are similar to other generations which did not sacrifice HT.

KompuKare · Jul 25, 2024

Hitman928 said:
Even if this QS is representative of final performance, there are still 2 very big unknowns. First is what memory config was used, this can make a significant difference in some benchmarks. The second is power/efficiency. I know it says that it was set to 250W, but we don't know how much it is actually using in CB (my guess would be 250W but we don't know for sure) and how much it uses in idle/ST scenarios.

ondma said:
It ia a "new" core, with HT removed, supposedly to give a higher ST boost. That is why I consider the ST gain disappointing. The problem is they are working against a clock speed "offset", so if they had eked out another 5% IPC gain it would have almost doubled the final performance gain.
14% - 8% = 6%
19% - 8% = 11%
The comparison that counts, though, is how the performance stacks up against Zen 5. All the instabilities in 13 and 14 gens are proving they are clocked at unrealistic levels to get higher performance. The real issue though, is that I think ARL will lose to Zen 5 in ST and maybe match it at best in nT. Even worse, is that the next gen for Intel is simply a refresh of ARL, so it wont do much to catch up. Maybe they can at least increase the clock speeds a bit. I see Intel pretty much permanently behind AMD on the desktop unless they hit a home run somewhere. ARL certainly was not it.

As for nT, if the gain is around 15%, i think that is acceptable. I still dont understand the Intel supporters who somehow thought ARL was going to dominate Zen 5 in nT tasks after giving up HT.

Or maybe not. Win or lose, 1-2% for +40% power is a craziness which has to stop and although Intel certainly started that race (recently), it may take Intel's current woes to put a stop the race too!

Goop_reformed · Jul 25, 2024

dullard said:
Why wait? We don't know final clocks (although the rumors are likely true), final microcode impacts, final price, final availability, final performance of iGPU and NPU, final performance at other power levels, and most relevant to the ST discussion: the final power used in ST usage.

But we do know final clocks right? And the microcode won't have a sizeable impact, as it always has been. And the price will not be competitive at all, have you looked at zen 5 leaked msrp yet?. igpu and npus are still memes. I agree with the last part though, but it's not gonna be any better than zen 5.

dullard · Jul 25, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
But we do know final clocks right? And the microcode won't have a sizeable impact, as it always has been. And the price will not be competitive at all, have you looked at zen 5 leaked msrp yet?. igpu and npus are still memes. I agree with the last part though, but it's not gonna be any better than zen 5.

Great, then please list your known Intel clocks for all upcoming Arrow Lake chips here, known final performances here, known Arrow Lake price lists here, and the CPU you will buy in the appropriate thread since you seem to think this is a comparison thread. Then please leave your ignorance about the 2/3rds of computers that use iGPUs and the potential for NPUs at the door.

Goop_reformed · Jul 25, 2024

dullard said:
Great, then please list your known Intel clocks for all upcoming Arrow Lake chips here, known final performances here, known Arrow Lake price lists here, and the CPU you will buy in the appropriate thread since you seem to think this is a comparison thread. Then please leave your ignorance about the 2/3rds of computers that use iGPUs and the potential for NPUs at the door.

No need to get defensive. Performance is already known. Single digit 1t uplift, 15%-20% nt. igpu and npus are still meme because the alternative is very competitive.

dullard · Jul 25, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
No need to get defensive. Performance is already known. Single digit 1t uplift, 15%-20% nt. igpu and npus are still meme because the alternative is very competitive.

So we should take your non-answer to mean that you don't know performance, prices, clock speeds, power levels, or how iGPUs and NPUs are necessary?

I'll start you out on something simple. What is the performance, price, and clock speed of the Core UItra 7 255?

Goop_reformed · Jul 25, 2024

dullard said:
So we should take your non-answer to mean that you don't know performance, prices, clock speeds, power levels, or how iGPUs and NPUs are necessary?

I'll start you out on something simple. What is the performance, price, and clock speed of the Core UItra 7 255?

Non answer? I answer to your inquiries directly. For the last time, arrowlake final performance is exactly what intel internal projection has shown.

dullard · Jul 25, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
Non answer? I answer to your inquiries directly. For the last time, arrowlake final performance is exactly what intel internal projection has shown.

Directly, what did Intel's internal projection show for the Core UItra 7 255? I missed that in your answer. I do see that you claim "Arrowlake performance is already known at this time", but I can't seem to find that data on the Core UItra 7 255. Heck, I still can't quite figure out the clock speed of that chip, so even if I wanted to apply a generic formula, what clock speed do I use to calculate it?

ondma · Jul 25, 2024

dullard said:
Great, then please list your known Intel clocks for all upcoming Arrow Lake chips here, known final performances here, known Arrow Lake price lists here, and the CPU you will buy in the appropriate thread since you seem to think this is a comparison thread. Then please leave your ignorance about the 2/3rds of computers that use iGPUs and the potential for NPUs at the door.

We have seen leak after leak showing mediocre gains, and the intel group has said, "just wait, its not the final number, there has to be better benchmarks down the road", and every new leak that comes out shows similar gains. Is it "possible" there will be some great revelation that turns things around? Possibly, but I am resigned to the old saying now" If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, well, it probably IS a duck."

dullard · Jul 25, 2024

ondma said:
We have seen leak after leak showing mediocre gains, and the intel group has said, "just wait, its not the final number, there has to be better benchmarks down the road", and every new leak that comes out shows similar gains. Is it "possible" there will be some great revelation that turns things around? Possibly, but I am resigned to the old saying now" If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, well, it probably IS a duck."

How much money is that duck? How much energy does that duck use in single threaded waddling? What are the frequency of the duck's feet? How quickly does the duck display images and report answers to questions? I'm mostly interested in the middle ducks in the whole brace of ducks.

Goop_reformed · Jul 25, 2024

dullard said:
How much money is that duck? How much energy does that duck use in single threaded waddling? What are the frequency of the duck's feet? How quickly does the duck display images and report answers to questions? I'm mostly interested in the middle ducks in the whole brace of ducks.

Did you miss the qs tested at 250W?

dullard · Jul 25, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
Did you miss the qs tested at 250W?

Not at all. Did you miss the discussion over many forum pages of single thread performance and my specific question about power used by a single thread? For help, see the bolded portion here: "How much energy does that duck use in single threaded waddling?" Which anyone who knows about CPUs is well under the 250 W used for multiple threads.

Hmm, still no direct answer from you.

Goop_reformed · Jul 25, 2024

dullard said:
Not at all. Did you miss the discussion over many forum pages of single thread performance and my specific question about power used by a single thread? Which anyone who knows about CPUs is well under the 250 W used for multiple threads.

Hmm, still no direct answer from you.

No need to get upset. It's just a cpu. You obviously ignore all the leaks, which are ALL legit btw, so far. It's pointless to argue with an individual like this.

dullard · Jul 25, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
No need to get upset. It's just a cpu. You obviously ignore all the leaks, which are ALL legit btw, so far. It's pointless to argue with an individual like this.

I'd like to be as informed as you. What are the leaks that I am ignoring regarding the performance, price, and clock speed of the Core UItra 7 255? You did claim that all Arrowlake (sic) performance is known.

SiliconFly · Jul 25, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
No need to get upset. It's just a cpu. You obviously ignore all the leaks, which are ALL legit btw, so far. It's pointless to argue with an individual like this.

Not even close.

Goop_reformed · Jul 25, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Not even close.

Examples?

DavidC1 · Jul 25, 2024

Again, why not just wait until it's review day for both? It's pointless.

SpeedMark, Geekbench, CrossMark, and Cinebench has their own problems and leaks are basically a user submitted benchmark that can have errors easily swinging few low single digit %, which WILL swing opinions again.

Wave #1: People thought Zen 5 is going to be DEFINITELY 32% thus Arrowlake and thus Intel was completely doomed and Pat will be out the door in 5 months.
Wave #2: Computex reveals about uarch of both processors have shown Zen 5 is 32%/2, and Skymont seemed awesome, so now Intel would DOOM AMD.
Wave #3: Certain forumgoers derive that Lion Cove in Arrowlake is somehow radically different and so awesome that it would go from being 14% Lunarlake to basically anywhere from 5 to 10% faster, MLID rabids included.
Wave #4: Now.

WCCFTech should cover the DRAMA in AT forums, so they redeem themselves as at least being a comic relief among the tech press.

DavidC1 · Jul 25, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
One approach is vastly superior to the other in terms of cost/development cycles/performance/scaling.

I don't really care about the way they reach their performance goals, as long as it meets my expectations.

The 22nm-awesomesauce-trigate process resulted in the 3770K, which was a big disappointment considering how good the predecessor was.

Also you should reserve judgement of how Intel's approach is until products based on them actually arrive. I think a certain 18A based many core processor will do mighty fine.

mikk · Jul 26, 2024

ARL definitely doesn't sound great from all the people who know a bit more including Intel. Wonder why Intel never praised Arrow Lake? Why talking up Panther Lake when it comes much later than ARL. Gelsinger basically said in an interview Lunar Lake and Panther Lake are great and Arrow Lake isn't. You can hear the excitement for LNL and PTL, about ARL nothing. From the beginning people told Lion Cove is a bit underwhelming which seems to turn out true. Also Lion Cove is build for scalability in mind because Royal Core had been cancelled.

majord · Jul 26, 2024

It did seem like he was doing a lot of forward looking to Panther lake during Computex

I'm not even sure Lunar lake excitement is entirely sensible , What is the major drawcard for it? What is intels solution for above 4+4c in 2024?

coercitiv · Jul 26, 2024

majord said:
What is intels solution for above 4+4c in 2024?

IIRC it's a shrink of MTL on 20A, though not sure it's coming in 2024. Not much is known about it though, people lost interest in their upper mobile lineup the moment we realized it's not Arrow Lake proper.

mikk · Jul 26, 2024

coercitiv said:
IIRC it's a shrink of MTL on 20A, though not sure it's coming in 2024. Not much is known about it though, people lost interest in their upper mobile lineup the moment we realized it's not Arrow Lake proper.

What are you talking about?

ARL-U 2+8 Intel 3 - rumored MTL refresh
ARL-H 6+8 N3B real Arrow Lake

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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