Question DEGRADING Raptor lake CPUs

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Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
1,063
1,120
136
I noticed some reports about degrading i9 13900K and KF processors.

I experienced this problem myself, when I ran it at 6 GHz, light load (3 threads of Cinebench), at acceptable temperature and non extreme voltage. After only few minutes it crashed, and then it could not run even at stock setting without bumping the voltage a bit.

I was thinking about the cause for this and I believe the problem is, that people do not appreciate, how high these frequencies are and that the real comfortable frequency limit of these CPUs is probably at something like 5500 or 5600 MHz. These CPUs are made on a same process (possibly improved somehow) on which Alder lake CPUs were made. See the frequencies 12900KS runs at. The frequency improvement of the new process tweak may not be so high as some people presume.

Those 13900K CPUs are probably highly binned to be able to find those which contain some cores which can reliably run at 5800 MHz. Some of the 13900K probably have little/no OC reserve left and pushing them will cause them to degrade/break.

The conclusion for me is that the best you can do to your 13900K or 13900KF is to disable the 5800 MHz peak, which will allow you to offset the voltage lower, and then set all core maximal frequency to some comfortable level, I guess the maximum level could be 5600 MHz. With lowered voltage this frequency should be gentler to the processor than running it at original 5500 MHz at higher voltage. You can also run it at lower frequencies, allowing for even higher voltage drop, but then the CPU is slowly loosing its sense (unless you want some high efficiency CPU intended for heavy multithread loads).

Running it with some power consumption limit dependent on your cooling solution to keep the CPU at sensible temperature will help too for sure.
 
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desrever

Member
Nov 6, 2021
167
445
106
Nah the tech press is all over this now. It's too late for them to rely on obfuscation and delay tactics.
I mean the tech press might give Intel some pressure now but at the end of the day, their scope of reach is limited and things will eventually blow over. Think of how poorly the i9s have been received by the tech press and yet still seem to be sold pretty well? Average person buying their next computer/CPU will see i9 and buy it either way.

Maybe lawyers everywhere are waiting for the August microcode update to drop so they have concrete evidence that something was missed by Intel during their regular manufacturing process and they kept denying it and gave their loyal customers the go around instead of properly investigating the issues reported. But then, maybe only Apple has lawyers as powerful as Intel's...
Lawyers will probably eventually launch a suit but it doesn't really matter, Intel will settle it for a small price much less than any recall.
 
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Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
1,063
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... things will eventually blow over.
What do you mean, there are real cost, problems and damages PC builders and end consumers sufferered and will suffer because of this.

The problem of enormous proportions is still ongoing and growing while Intel has not provided any solution to stop it, other than supplying replacement CPUs which at this point will fail the same way as the previous ones, because nothing changed so far.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,998
11,555
136
I mean the tech press might give Intel some pressure now but at the end of the day, their scope of reach is limited and things will eventually blow over. Think of how poorly the i9s have been received by the tech press and yet still seem to be sold pretty well? Average person buying their next computer/CPU will see i9 and buy it either way.


Lawyers will probably eventually launch a suit but it doesn't really matter, Intel will settle it for a small price much less than any recall.
I don't recall the tech press being all THAT negative about the 13900k or 14900k, versus say the 11900k. Lawyers can still do a lot of damage, too, especially if they understand the potential losses Intel faces over a recall.
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
26,054
15,195
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I hate to be too negative, but I hope there IS a class action lawsuit. Intel needs to acknowledge this in a big way. In this world of power shortages, a CPU that can draw more than a 96 core server CPU just to win a benchmark is insane. They need to pay for this mistake in a big way, as in BILLIONS it will cost them.
 

desrever

Member
Nov 6, 2021
167
445
106
What do you mean, there are real cost, problems and damages PC builders and end consumers sufferered and will suffer because of this.

The problem of enormous proportions is still ongoing and growing while Intel has not provided any solution to stop it, other than supplying replacement CPUs which at this point will fail the same way as the previous ones, because nothing changed so far.
Thats the thing, Intel can keeps quiet and then takes a small loss or they actually do the right thing and take a large loss. From Intel's perspective, its pretty easy choice to screw consumers to keep profits.

I'm not saying Intel is right to do it, just saying Intel is doing exactly what it's doing for a reason.
 

lakedude

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2009
2,679
479
126
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DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
29,462
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Thats the thing, Intel can keeps quiet and then takes a small loss or they actually do the right thing and take a large loss. From Intel's perspective, its pretty easy choice to screw consumers to keep profits.

I'm not saying Intel is right to do it, just saying Intel is doing exactly what it's doing for a reason.
I have read versions of this the last couple days, all over the place. It may have been possible back in April, but that ship has sailed. This will not be a small loss; the consequences are likely to be far reaching.

Governments will probably get involved. The lawsuits won't just be in the U.S. Lost sales, not only now, but the future, and the continued reputation damage, are variables to consider.

Keeping quiet has failed miserably. They have lost trust, and every press release is greeted with incredulity and suspicion. Some of the biggest reviewers are telling their audiences to nope out until further notice. We know there are OEM/ODM, S.I.s, DC clients, game devs, and mainboard partners, all spicy enough, that some have become very vocal, while others leak information about the SNAFUs.

It is entirely possible that doing the right thing from the get go was the cheapest and best course of action. Considering the ever growing extent of the problems, and collateral damage being wrought.
 
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Majcric

Golden Member
May 3, 2011
1,388
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There's some wiggle room at the very top due to "terms and conditions". In the case of Intel that would be eTVB which is opportunistic (temps, preferred cores etc.) As you go down 100 or 200Mhz lower... things get complicated fast, the CPU should be able to hit these clocks on multiple cores at once.


There's more to this than clocks and power. There are affected 13th gen CPUs that run lower clocks than the 12700K.
Has this been ruled out completely? I thought I remembered seeing 13th/14th gen calling for extra voltage or having voltage spikes.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,595
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I thought I remembered seeing 13th/14th gen calling for extra voltage or having voltage spikes.
That's the official explanation from Intel: their boost algorithm sometimes asks for too much voltage, and this apparently happens even for 13th gen desktop chips with lower speeds, comparable to 12700K. For example the 13700T is a 4.9Ghz SKU and still apparently affected, though arguably to a lesser degree. Higher clocked SKUs tend to fail faster though, with the 13900K/14900K leading the charts.
 
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Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,455
2,373
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How and why would the microcode ask for too much voltage for the CPU? It seems like this would be something that would be well tested and implemented by Intel. In addition, Intel should know how much voltage/current/temp is safe for their processors?

I'm starting to change my tune here. Intel knows the capability of each chip off the wafer after sorting, which itself is a mystery, and it also knows the durability of its process. I believe Intel pushed the frequency and the voltage and thus reduced the safety margin for benchmark scores and thought or hoped that most people wouldn't push the CPU hard enough to damage it during the warranty period.

I also don't think Intel is being fully honest as information is coming out in drips and drabs. Full disclosure and making it right for all customers would be the right thing to do here to stop the bleeding.
 

Nothingness

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2013
3,029
1,971
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How and why would the microcode ask for too much voltage for the CPU? It seems like this would be something that would be well tested and implemented by Intel. In addition, Intel should know how much voltage/current/temp is safe for their processors?
Hypothesis: management wanted to be sure their high-end chips could perform better than AMD at any cost.
Engineers, despite saying it could be dangerous, came with a "solution", because at some point an engineer has to propose crazy solutions to please management or be ready to change company. Management accepted to take the risk because they wanted to top AMD. Everyone knew what could happen. Now let's see who will get fired.

As I said this is just an hypothesis. This can't be real, right? 😅
 

Nothingness

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2013
3,029
1,971
136
Very close except I expect most of the engineers were in favor of erring on the side of caution.

This happens every time. Engineers are like "but it is too cold, the O-ring won't seal" and management is like "send it"
Yes, engineers are always cautious. That's why management is sometimes useful to push them outside their comfort zone. The problems happen when management is completely dumb and that they know as much about silicon as they know about soap.
 

positivedoppler

Golden Member
Apr 30, 2012
1,132
221
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Hypothesis: management wanted to be sure their high-end chips could perform better than AMD at any cost.
Engineers, despite saying it could be dangerous, came with a "solution", because at some point an engineer has to propose crazy solutions to please management or be ready to change company. Management accepted to take the risk because they wanted to top AMD. Everyone knew what could happen. Now let's see who will get fired.

As I said this is just an hypothesis. This can't be real, right? 😅
Happens all the time where I work and used to work. Engineers are pressured into providing a solution. In my older age, I'm finally comfortable with "I have no solution for you."
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Yes, engineers are always cautious. That's why management is sometimes useful to push them outside their comfort zone. The problems happen when management is completely dumb and that they know as much about silicon as they know about soap.
And a problem with management is that they can't wrap their head around the fact that engineers don't know everything. They are like, isn't an engineer knowing his stuff part of the job??? But a real engineer is as much as knowing stuff while admitting he doesn't know everything. Hence the caution.

Like that funny story about Tom Cruise asking his stuntman if he could do a very dangerous stunt. The stunt professional, based on his years of experience, advised Tom against doing it. Tom fired him and hired another one who said, let's go!
 
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Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,455
2,373
136
Hypothesis: management wanted to be sure their high-end chips could perform better than AMD at any cost.
Engineers, despite saying it could be dangerous, came with a "solution", because at some point an engineer has to propose crazy solutions to please management or be ready to change company. Management accepted to take the risk because they wanted to top AMD. Everyone knew what could happen. Now let's see who will get fired.

As I said this is just an hypothesis. This can't be real, right? 😅
Yes. This reminds me of the Audi diesel fiasco. Can't make the spec? No problem, just make the spec.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
29,462
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Yes. This reminds me of the Audi diesel fiasco. Can't make the spec? No problem, just make the spec.
Weird. I was thinking of the analogy of Volkswagen cheating on the emissions test.

Truck full of salt required- According to TOM/MLID supposedly the big shot that had to fly in to make the call on which wafers to keep at the Arizona fab is the same one that just left the company. "Sounds made up, probably true."
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,455
2,373
136
I heard that Audio CEO would tough. "I want the panel separations as this spec" "But it can't be done." "You have this much time to make it happen or you are gone."

They made it happen. People will go to extraordinary lengths to keep food on the table for their family. Sometimes using legitimate methods, other times pushing hard into gray areas.

Intel could do something like this to put this behind them and make a start on regaining customer confidence.

"Due to overly aggressive binning and overestimating the durability of our Intel 7 node many of our Raptor Lake processors requires too much voltage to reach advertised frequencies. We sincerely apologize for this oversight. In an effort to make this right for our customers Intel is offering the following options for all Raptor Lake owners:
1. Full refund for your CPU.
2. 50% refund for your CPU and a replacement with 10% lower frequency specification.
3. 25% purchase price compensation if you are happy with your current product.
4. All Raptor Lake warranties will be extended by 2 years."

Current KS products could probably serve as functioning 14900K parts. Of course the KS would be no more.
 
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