Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

511 · Jul 27, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
Double digits could be 15% or 50%. Would you say a single digit 1t and 20% nt are disappointing?

The biggest problem is the 18% leaked gains at 250W if the gains were at 177W like previous leaked PLs it would have been fine

techjunkie123 · Jul 27, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
Double digits could be 15% or 50%. Would you say a single digit 1t and 20% nt are disappointing?

I'm a little confused by why the nT gains are so low TBH. For i9 it's 8+16 vs 8+16, E cores are supposedly much improved, P cores slightly faster, and going from Intel 7 to N3B or 20 A. I guess the only impressive part would be if that +20% nT comes at -50% power compared to raptor lake?

jpiniero · Jul 27, 2024

techjunkie123 said:
I'm a little confused by why the nT gains are so low TBH.

No HT

inf64 · Jul 27, 2024

techjunkie123 said:
I'm a little confused by why the nT gains are so low TBH. For i9 it's 8+16 vs 8+16, E cores are supposedly much improved, P cores slightly faster, and going from Intel 7 to N3B or 20 A. I guess the only impressive part would be if that +20% nT comes at -50% power compared to raptor lake?

8 P cores in ARL lack SMT which costs 30% of performance, while probably having a bit lower all core Turbo versus Raptor Lake P cores.

techjunkie123 · Jul 27, 2024

jpiniero said:
No HT

inf64 said:
8 P cores in ARL lack SMT which costs 30% of performance, while probably having a bit lower all core Turbo versus Raptor Lake P cores.

I see makes sense I guess. Then at least power draw should be much lower, aside from chiplet overhead. I guess we'll have to see when the retail units are out.

511 · Jul 27, 2024

inf64 said:
8 P cores in ARL lack SMT which costs 30% of performance, while probably having a bit lower all core Turbo versus Raptor Lake P cores.

It's not exactly 30% it varies by workload for some workload it's single digit

SiliconFly · Jul 28, 2024

511 said:
It's not exactly 30% it varies by workload for some workload it's single digit

True. It’s not exactly 30%, but upto 30% in certain workloads. In reality, it’s usually between 15% to 20%.

ondma · Jul 28, 2024

SiliconFly said:
True. It’s not exactly 30%, but upto 30% in certain workloads. In reality, it’s usually between 15% to 20%.

Yea, but we come back again to the fact that HT was supposedly removed to make ST performance better, yet the ST gains are apparently less than 10%. Gaming is the real test for me, and I fear that with the small ST gains and extra latency of chiplets, gaming may be a wash compared to RL or even a regression.

techjunkie123 · Jul 28, 2024

ondma said:
Yea, but we come back again to the fact that HT was supposedly removed to make ST performance better, yet the ST gains are apparently less than 10%. Gaming is the real test for me, and I fear that with the small ST gains and extra latency of chiplets, gaming may be a wash compared to RL or even a regression.

I thought HT was removed to save area (cost)... At least on lunar lake. I guess it's cheaper/better to add skymont cores than to enable HT on the P cores.

But you would think for desktop HT would be helpful and the core design is unique anyway. So not sure why they don't include it on arrow lake.

jpiniero · Jul 28, 2024

I still say that HT was removed to save on validation costs.

Which as you can see... Intel is having problems with validation.

ryanjagtap · Jul 28, 2024

jpiniero said:
I still say that HT was removed to save on validation costs.

Which as you can see... Intel is having problems with validation.

Having two instead of three types of thread could make scheduling easier.

SiliconFly · Jul 28, 2024

ryanjagtap said:
Having two instead of three types of thread could make scheduling easier.

Scheduling between P cores, E cores & LPE cores is rather difficult. Like I said before, when available, HT kicks in only when all physical cores are *already* fully saturated. HT scheduling is a lot easier compared to others.

SiliconFly · Jul 28, 2024

techjunkie123 said:
I thought HT was removed to save area (cost)... At least on lunar lake. I guess it's cheaper/better to add skymont cores than to enable HT on the P cores.

But you would think for desktop HT would be helpful and the core design is unique anyway. So not sure why they don't include it on arrow lake.

jpiniero said:
I still say that HT was removed to save on validation costs.

Which as you can see... Intel is having problems with validation.

HT wasn't removed to reduce area (cost) or validation cost. They're insignificant compared to what they're giving up. The primary reason for removing HT is for ST gains.

In a client CPU, ST is the most important factor, followed by MT and then by others (tgpu, npu, area, validation, etc).

mikk · Jul 28, 2024

On a low power client chip ST is certainly not the most important metric. As for Lunar Lake battery life and efficiency from low to high load will be the most important. Who cares if it has 5% better or worse ST than something else.

Wolverine2349 · Jul 28, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Scheduling between P cores, E cores & LPE cores is rather difficult. Like I said before, when available, HT kicks in only when all physical cores are *already* fully saturated. HT scheduling is a lot easier compared to others.

Yes it is much easier because we have had HT and been an an SMP ecosystem with Windows NT operating systems for over 20 years now since November 2002 for HT,

E-cores and P cores heterogenous design is so new.

Henry swagger · Jul 29, 2024

https://twitter.com/x/status/1817762505973801383

7% behind the m3 in single.. looking good

Goop_reformed · Jul 29, 2024

Henry swagger said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1817762505973801383

7% behind the m3 in single.. looking good

What's the average frequency?

controlflow · Jul 29, 2024

Henry swagger said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1817762505973801383

7% behind the m3 in single.. looking good

Terrible LNC IPC! It needed 940783930703872 MHz to get that performance

Should be interesting to see what the actual frequencies and power looked like. I assume this part has a 30W PL2. Looks promising.
In order to be successful, LNL really needs to nail performance at the sub 15-20W range and be able to maintain actually low power while doing light to moderate activity like web surfing.

511 · Jul 29, 2024

I wonder if we run it on Linux we can match M3 ST

Henry swagger · Jul 29, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
What's the average frequency?

4900ghz

Henry swagger · Jul 29, 2024

511 said:
I wonder if we run it on Linux we can match M3 ST

It will i think.. snapdragon x elite performs better on linux than on Windows with geekbench 6

naukkis · Jul 29, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Scheduling between P cores, E cores & LPE cores is rather difficult. Like I said before, when available, HT kicks in only when all physical cores are *already* fully saturated. HT scheduling is a lot easier compared to others.

It isn't. All other cores can be scheluded by their relative performance to each other - but when in Hybrid systems HT kicks in all previous scheluding need to be rechecked because HT will slow down previously fastest cores to be actually slowest ones. So when HT kicks in best performance cores will switch between non-HT reserved big cores and E-cores and that makes it pretty much impossible job to do right for best overall performance and responsivity as there will be additional overhead switching threads between best performing cores.

Scheluding hybrid cpu's where best performing cores have HT is like splitting tens on Blackjack. Most of the time it will result worse outcome so scheluder really does need to know well when splitting it's best performing cores. Best performing always working strategy is to not split them - ever. Intel was fool when they left HT on their hybrid cpu's at first place.

MarkPost · Jul 29, 2024

controlflow said:
Terrible LNC IPC! It needed 940783930703872 MHz to get that performance

Should be interesting to see what the actual frequencies and power looked like. I assume this part has a 30W PL2. Looks promising.
In order to be successful, LNL really needs to nail performance at the sub 15-20W range and be able to maintain actually low power while doing light to moderate activity like web surfing.

5.0GHz average

Code:

processor_frequency": {
        "frequencies": [
            5018,
            5047,
            5071,
            5049,
            4983,
            5047,
            5009,
            4950,
            5044,
            5035,
            5068,
            5064,
            5055,
            5046,
            4906,
            4969,
            5000,
            5054,
            5054,
            4957,
            5063,
            3717,
            4639,
            4077,
            5079,
            5065,
            4964,
            5038,
            5063,
            5063,
            5069,
            5058,
            5020,
            5053,
            4961,
            4943,
            4893,
            4358,
            5000,
            5038,
            4973,
            5039,
            4610,
            4925,
            5019,
            4892,
            5052,
            5015,
            5060,
            5049

Magio · Jul 29, 2024

Henry swagger said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1817762505973801383

7% behind the m3 in single.. looking good

Good ST but we're still waiting for a demonstration of what the 30W SKU can truly do in MT. This is clearly a bad outlier considering we've seen the 17W PL1 parts can do 11k but I'd like to know whether LNL can do meaningfully better than that with 30W sustained.

ErichZannMusician · Jul 29, 2024

Magio said:
Good ST but we're still waiting for a demonstration of what the 30W SKU can truly do in MT. This is clearly a bad outlier considering we've seen the 17W PL1 parts can do 11k but I'd like to know whether LNL can do meaningfully better than that with 30W sustained.

The 30 W Ultra 9 288V exists solely for giving the iGPU more oomph, and will therefore be used mainly in gaming-centric designs.

Also, the Prestige 13 Meteor Lake had pretty meh cooling.

I wouldn't hold my breath for any magical MT improvements. 12-13K in GB6 MT is the upper limit of what it may achieve.

Also, there is no '30 W sustained' or, for that matter any fixed power limit in Intel Mobile CPU land unless you disable DTT using Throttlestop. So comparisons of MT score, especially on different laptop models, is meaningless.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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