Intel processors crashing Unreal engine games (and others)

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coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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Yeah because they're not raptor lake. They're all still alder lake below i5K
Some locked i5s sold in trays are RPL dies. See here. This could affect PCs sold by system integrators, as in theory those units should also start getting extended warranties.

The bigger problem is Intel never acknowledged a list of processors affected by stability issues. You won't find a statement saying locked 13th and 14th i5 CPUs are safe. We're forced to guess and they can always change their mind.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Not sure if this is a scam but


Mr Su’s brand new BGA to LGA has finally arrived! New chips, more fun to have. The new generation BGA to LGA chips all have unlocked core multiplier and unlocked SA voltage enabling new ways to fine tune your system.

The biggest change this time is that no BIOS mods are needed! Yes, that means no more BIOS programmers and most LGA1700 motherboards will run these straight out of the box! That’s not it, you can also theoretically overclock on B and H series chipsets too! No need for expensive Z series for overclocking. Yes, that means H610 can now overclock memory too!

If true, this should wipe any doubts that the HX CPUs are anything more than rebadged desktop dies. Working even without modding BIOS.

Could be a great deal for anyone wanting "stable" Alder Lake.
 

Jan Olšan

Senior member
Jan 12, 2017
427
775
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These chips are fine way to have an Intel CPU without any warranty at all, so if it turns out the degrading is present in Alder Lake too (only acting slower), you would be out of luck. Also, the general reliability of these mods is likely more flaky than with legitimate desktop parts. They are quite interesting pieces of hardware though.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
29,798
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Yes, the HUB vid is just a recap. Steve prefacing the first review of Zen 5 CPUs he is about to upload.

Rich over at Digital Foundry is capping his at 150W for now to keep it stable. If you look at HUB's results for the Gigabyte bios that had the 188W PL2, it nerfs performance significantly. I guess Rich can count the Intel ad revenue money while he waits for his CPU to turtle through his workflow.

Speaking of ad revenue, the redditors on mobile keep posting screenshots of Intel ads in between posts excoriating Intel. Targeted advertising unintentionally trolling everyone. 🎯
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,782
1,233
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MLID interview with Matt (head) of Alderon games. queued to time.
they were getting crashes and all the server farm op could say is the fallback to backup was seconds, which is no good if a streamer is playing on the crashed server. bad experience = bad pr = dead game = dead game company.
him going public on twitter with the crashes drew ddos and fanboys ire, but other server farms contacted him telling their stories of the crashing.

he also goes into developing games for multi platforms. mobile is a nightmare due to lack of gpu driver support.
raytracing isnt worth it on ue5 because too many dynamic interactions that make the nonRT version look better and cost less resource-wise.

also lol at him wearing the GN shirt.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Introducing Matt from Alderon Games


This podcast is brought to you by JA, which helps you build your next PC hassle-free. Use the link in the description to support the channel and find great deals on their website. Additionally, visit CDKeyOffer.com and use the offer code "BrokenSilicon" to save 25% on all Microsoft software. You can also go to VRamen and use the offer code "BrokenSilicon" to save 10% on all of their delicious ramen and other fantastic products. We'll discuss these sponsors more later, but for now, let's get on with the show.

Welcome to Broken Silicon, a gaming hardware podcast. I am your host, Tom, and today I am thrilled to have on someone with an extensive history in game development. Matt has also been very vocal about the ongoing Intel instability issues we are seeing right now. This is significant not only from a journalism perspective but also from a game development perspective, as we often have guests who are tech YouTubers or CPU architects. It's crucial to hear from those working directly with the hardware that we discuss week after week. There's so much insight that can be gained from conversing with individuals using the technology in real projects.


Matt, please introduce yourself. Let us know where you're from, what got you into game development, and provide us with examples of projects you've worked on, sharing as much of your work history as you wish.


Matt:
Sure! Hey everyone, I'm Matt; I run Alderon Games. My background is primarily in programming, but currently, I manage the entire company. I've been involved in games for over ten years, and I’m currently working on a dinosaur survival game called "Path of Titans." In the past, I’ve worked on mods and games like "Breaking Point" and "The Isle," along with various contracts and some VR projects. We're also developing a complete replacement for Steam, so we’re publishing games ourselves. This adds complexity beyond just making the game, as we're handling backend services, purchases, and refunds.


What drove you to become a game developer? I assume you played many games as a kid. What was your journey?


Matt:
It all started with my dad. When I was playing games like "Runescape" and "World of Warcraft," he would often say, “Why waste your time playing games when you could be making them?” That sparked my interest, especially in multiplayer games. There's something about the human experience in multiplayer that I find fascinating, so naturally, a lot of the games I work on now focus on that aspect.


Did you always plan to focus on multiplayer games, or was it something you stumbled upon?


Matt:
I've always been inspired by games like "DayZ" and the multiplayer experiences they offer. However, when I started as an indie game developer, there were many challenges. People advised against making multiplayer games as a newcomer because they are complex and resource-intensive. The first game I worked on was an MMO, and I quickly learned about the scalability issues and requirements. Over time, I realized the importance of balancing gameplay and the content needed for multiplayer experiences, which led to my current projects.


Tom:
Let's touch on your experiences with different hardware platforms. Which platform excites you the most for game development? Do you prefer working on optimizations for the various Nvidia GPUs, integrated graphics for broader access, or console development?


Matt:
For me, PC development is the most exciting due to its flexibility. However, it's a developer's nightmare in terms of fragmentation. Between different graphic cards from AMD and Nvidia and various Windows versions, it becomes challenging. In contrast, console development simplifies things — once you know the specs, you can be confident that the game will run identically across all units.


Tom:
You raised an interesting point about Intel's recent issues. From your experience of developing for Intel versus AMD, do you believe Intel’s current instability will affect future development?


Matt:
Absolutely. The inconsistency in driver updates and stability issues hampered our game development. We've faced problems with Intel’s integrated graphics, leading to crashes and frustrating customer experiences. In contrast, working with AMD has been significantly smoother.


Tom:
You mentioned the upcoming PS5 Pro and its implications for game development. What are your thoughts on the hardware trade-offs with that console, especially concerning the GPU performance and RT capabilities?


Matt:
While the uplift in performance is promising, I question the CPU's stagnation. The focus seems to be on GPU enhancements, which is great, but the experience should be holistic. If the CPU performance doesn't improve alongside the graphics capabilities, game developers may find themselves bottlenecked. Optimizing for one without considering the other has often led to challenges in development.


Continuing on that path, have you been paying attention to the potential impact of Qualcomm’s Snapdragon X Elite on future gaming development? Does it bring any new opportunities or challenges?


Matt:
I have mixed feelings about it. While the idea of an efficient APU is appealing, the reality of driver support and development tools lags. To create a viable gaming environment, Qualcomm must provide robust support for developers and optimize tools for ease of use.


Tom:
Looking back at the gaming landscape today, do you believe VR is a viable future for gaming, or is it quickly fading out?


Matt:
VR’s appeal is limited by logistical challenges — the need for space, comfort, and the issue of motion sickness. While the technology can be compelling, it currently lacks widespread accessibility and user-friendliness, which hinders its growth as a mainstream platform.


Tom:
All right, before we wrap up, please promote yourself! Where can people find your games and support you?


Matt:
You can find us at AlderonGames.com and check out "Path of Titans." Sharing our games and the ongoing issues at Intel will help more than anything. Thank you for having me on the show!


Tom:
Thank you, Matt! And to our listeners, don't forget to subscribe to "Broken Silicon" and support our channel on Patreon. We appreciate you tuning in!

Then I made it rewrite it without missing key details:

This podcast episode is brought to you by Jaa, which helps you build your next PC hassle-free. Check the link in the description to find great deals and support the channel. Also, visit cdkeyoffer.com and use the offer code "BROKEN SILICON" to save 25% on Microsoft software, and don't forget V Ramen, where you can save 10% with the same offer code on their delicious ramen products. We'll discuss our sponsors further later, but for now, let's dive into the show.


[Music]


[Applause]


Welcome to Broken Silicon, a gaming hardware podcast. I’m your host, Tom. Today, I’m thrilled to have someone with an extensive game development background on the show—Matt from Alderon Games. He’s been vocal about the ongoing Intel instability issues, and I believe this perspective is vital, not only for journalism but also for game development. Many guests we have are TechTubers or CPU architects, but we must also hear from those using the hardware we discuss weekly.


Matt, please introduce yourself. Where are you from, what got you into game development, and can you share some of your projects?


Sure! I’m Matt, I run Alderon Games, primarily a programmer but now I’m managing the whole company. I’ve been in the game industry for over 10 years. Right now, I’m working on a dinosaur survival game called "Path of Titans," but I’ve also worked on mods and a game called "Breaking Point," as well as on a dinosaur game called "The Isle." We've also developed a platform that acts as a replacement for Steam, allowing us to publish games ourselves.


What inspired you to become a game developer?


It all started with my dad. While I was engrossed in games like "Runescape" and "World of Warcraft," he encouraged me to create games instead of just playing them. I became really interested in multiplayer games, which now heavily influences the games I develop.


You've focused extensively on multiplayer experiences—did you always know you wanted to make those kinds of games?


Yes, I’ve always enjoyed multiplayer games, and I thought the experience was incredible. Initially, I wanted to create a massive MMO, but as an indie developer, I quickly realized how challenging that would be. Over time, I gravitated toward smaller projects like survival games that allow for multiplayer interaction, as they’re easier to manage.


What hardware excites you to develop for? Do you prefer optimizing for NVIDIA GPUs with their specs or console development?


This is a tough question; I find excitement in developing for PC due to the flexibility it offers. However, PC can be a nightmare because of its fragmentation compared to consoles. When developing for consoles, all units run the same specs, eliminating out-of-date driver issues. If a game crashes on Intel integrated graphics, it’s difficult to help users who are experiencing adversity, especially if there’s no new driver update available.


Based on your experiences with the PS5 Pro, do you think the right hardware trade-offs have been made?


I have some concerns. Keeping the same CPU speed seems off, especially after a few years since the last generation. However, if the GPU performance is considerably better, that could help make the gaming experience worthwhile. Still, I do worry that they may overstate their specs and features.


Do you think the PS5 Pro will face similar challenges to frame rates as seen with the current generation?


Absolutely. It's always a balancing act between resolution, frame rate, and graphical fidelity. While consumers want 60FPS, higher graphical settings will often dip performance. Developers will need to focus on optimizing for both. The consumer experience becomes problematic when it isn't standardized across different units.


Are there specific issues related to the AMD vs. Intel chipset experiences that you've dealt with as a developer?


Definitely. AMD has made significant improvements in usability and reliability of their chipsets, especially in their latest offerings. Developers have generally had a more stable experience with AMD than with Intel's offerings recently. The lack of timely driver updates and bugs experienced with Intel CPUs can create major problems.


As for the future of ARM on Windows with Qualcomm's Snapdragon X Elite, do you think there’s potential there?


Qualcomm has a mountain to climb. While I see potential in ARM architecture for gaming, the current state just isn't ready. They need to get their drivers and software support in place, and that will take time. If this becomes an integral part of gaming, we'll need to see developers take it more seriously, both for hardware and software development.


What would you say about the future of VR gaming? Is the excitement waning?


Yes, it seems like VR is losing steam. There was a point when the excitement and novelty were high, but now it feels like the market is shrinking. For VR to take off, it needs to be more accessible, seamless, and universally adopted by the gaming community. Until then, it may remain a niche market.


Can you share where people can find Alderon Games and support you?


You can check out Alderon Games at aldarongames.com. Your support by spreading the word is incredibly helpful, especially as we navigate the challenges in the industry.


And as always, support the podcast through patreon or by sharing it with friends. Thank you for tuning in!


This podcast was brought to you by more than just our sponsors; it’s also a community-driven effort. Check out more details on our website for ways to support us and enjoy more content.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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Aug 22, 2001
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It was a damned good interview. Good Q&A with Matt. I wonder if Matt may have gotten that shirt from GN personally. Would not be surprised if he turned up in the follow up expose.

Good knowledge drop for filthy casuals like myself. Interesting that he has to pay for all of the crash dumps, and knowing most will be raptor it is probably better to block that data and give up.

"Sometimes the CPU can't do math." Me too raptor lake, me too.

On the topic of Pudget's founder Bach's close ties to Intel: Now we know who is sitting on a buttload of raptor builds that stop selling. Probably getting inundated with questions from clients too. Hence the extended warranty.

The desperation is palpable; he just heavily tarnished an excellent reputation by engaging in a disinformation campaign to move inventory. Now when anyone mentions Pudget someone will bring up his biased gaslighting. All it managed was a few days of a talking point that didn't get a lot of traction, and has now backfired like every other dirtbag tactic to date.
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,560
1,694
136
Heh, my favorite bit from the dev interview, re failure rate and definitions: "If we have to run the ram speed at like 2000 or 3000mhz or ddr2 speeds, something like that...that machine isn't really useful".
 

H433x0n

Golden Member
Mar 15, 2023
1,222
1,600
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On the topic of Pudget's founder Bach's close ties to Intel: Now we know who is sitting on a buttload of raptor builds that stop selling. Probably getting inundated with questions from clients too. Hence the extended warranty.

The desperation is palpable; he just heavily tarnished an excellent reputation by engaging in a disinformation campaign to move inventory. Now when anyone mentions Pudget someone will bring up his biased gaslighting. All it managed was a few days of a talking point that didn't get a lot of traction, and has now backfired like every other dirtbag tactic to date.
You’re reaching here. I don't think the Puget data is fake, it's just missing context.

Their systems are really locked down, as detailed in this article.
 

Steltek

Diamond Member
Mar 29, 2001
3,258
1,006
136
You’re reaching here. I don't think the Puget data is fake, it's just missing context.

Their systems are really locked down, as detailed in this article.

I do kinda agree with the context issue - it is an apple and orange comparison. Puget's customer base has a totally different use case than do high performance-case end users like Alderon Games or the data centers.

Puget's lower power stability-oriented settings may well be saving their customers in the short term (and their data would seem to suggest that), but long term it is still exceedingly likely their customers will just be slow-boating to the same place as everyone else, especially if the microcode update doesn't pan out.

The data everyone really needs to see is the data that will probably never, ever be made public -- i.e. how are the big 3 OEMs (Lenovo/Dell/HP) faring related to Intel CPU failure rates over the last 24 months? Those are Intel's biggest three customers. They also all sell systems that tend to be tuned for low to moderate performance home/business use, way below the standards of the enthuiast community. In short, systems more to the Puget end of the curve than not.

Intel will probably do anything and everything to keep that data from ever seeing the light of day.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,740
14,576
136
You’re reaching here. I don't think the Puget data is fake, it's just missing context.

Their systems are really locked down, as detailed in this article.
Replying to add relevant info from that article and a bit of commentary:
  • they use PL1=125W and PL2=253W with Tau=56s
  • fan speed is aggressive, ramping to 100% at 70C
  • MCE, TVB and ABT are disabled
Since they use just one motherboard model in their builds, they probably have it configured pretty well, I would expect that voltages are on the low side.

I don't think Puget's data contests what we know about 13900K/14900K. It just shows that degradation can indeed be delayed by using safer/saner settings. Using the power of hindsight we can even reasonably assume that the reason for the increased failures on field is that degradation is creeping in slowly but surely, and it will eventually reach high numbers as long as customers keep using the systems. In fact more customers might already have unstable systems, they just don't know it yet. (as Wendel described it, a few errors a week can easily be ignored on personal machines, consumers need crashes and BSODs to get alarmed)
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
29,798
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I mean, we're talking about class action lawsuit here. Right?
Yes, there has been no question in my mind and I put that forward months ago. As Rob observes - it was inevitable https://www.techspot.com/news/104069-intel-faces-possible-class-action-lawsuit-over-faulty.html

Governments might get involved judging by the inconsistent RMA experiences in different countries. I read South Korea was actively investigating, but I don't see any articles about it. Just a couple of redditors that live there is the source. Would not surprise me however.

The admission of the oxidation issues was stepping on a legal landmine evidently. I know there are laws here about defects with strict liability. I am no legal eagle but I think they apply to electronics too. Changing their story and editing their response about affected CPUs still being on shelves in 2024 does not bode well.

My conclusion is that the fun is just getting started. The confirmation that the guy in charge of manufacturing retired is not a good look either. Bailing out or forced out?
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,740
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The admission of the oxidation issues was stepping on a legal landmine evidently.
Yup, Intel is stuck between a rock and a hard place: they cannot avoid making some things public because of the legal implications, but any info they spill makes it more likely that a lawsuit or investigation will take place. Meanwhile the one thing that would make everything go away is too expensive for them (a generous lifetime warranty or reimbursement scheme). Also, if one governmental agency in US/EU/Asia takes action, the rest are that much more likely to follow.

The irony is that secrecy pushed them in this state. In hindsight, had they taken the bitter pill and made oxidation issues public, they would have been able to freely investigate further and caught the elevated voltage issue much sooner (public pressure would have helped too) . It's speculation on my part, but I think that Intel engineers were not given free reign to investigate reliability of 13th/14th gen after the oxidation issue popped up, because doing so would generate internal data that could pop up during a lawsuit discovery or gov. investigation. So Intel might have blinded themselves to pass the lie detector test

The last hope for them is that laptop chips are safe (not the HX stuff, the rest).
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
29,798
25,346
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Yup, Intel is stuck between a rock and a hard place: they cannot avoid making some things public because of the legal implications, but any info they spill makes it more likely that a lawsuit or investigation will take place. Meanwhile the one thing that would make everything go away is too expensive for them (a generous lifetime warranty or reimbursement scheme). Also, if one governmental agency in US/EU/Asia takes action, the rest are that much more likely to follow.

The irony is that secrecy pushed them in this state. In hindsight, had they taken the bitter pill and made oxidation issues public, they would have been able to freely investigate further and caught the elevated voltage issue much sooner (public pressure would have helped too) . It's speculation on my part, but I think that Intel engineers were not given free reign to investigate reliability of 13th/14th gen after the oxidation issue popped up, because doing so would generate internal data that could pop up during a lawsuit discovery or gov. investigation. So Intel might have blinded themselves to pass the lie detector test

The last hope for them is that laptop chips are safe (not the HX stuff, the rest).
Here in the states we have a law about latent defects too. Even when the manufacturer is not aware there is one, they are still strictly liable. EDIT: a quick look around looks like it all applies to injury claims. I did not see any language without injuries involved.

MLID claims employee at the Arizona plant said Keyvan Esfarjani personally flew in and made the decision on which wafers to keep during the oxidation snafu.

Seems like they are starting to remove some of that institutional rot - https://www.crn.com/news/components...sion-gets-second-leadership-shakeup-this-year
 
Last edited:

DZero

Senior member
Jun 20, 2024
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Some locked i5s sold in trays are RPL dies. See here. This could affect PCs sold by system integrators, as in theory those units should also start getting extended warranties.

The bigger problem is Intel never acknowledged a list of processors affected by stability issues. You won't find a statement saying locked 13th and 14th i5 CPUs are safe. We're forced to guess and they can always change their mind.
So... OEMs PCs are likely to be affected?
 

Steltek

Diamond Member
Mar 29, 2001
3,258
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So... OEMs PCs are likely to be affected?

Intel is specifically avoiding the question, so you have to presume the answer is yes for your own protection.

How that will pan out is anyone's guess, as OEM sellers assume warranty liability for customers on all system components including the CPUs. The OEMs themselves should have coverage through Intel for the CPUs.

Most OEMs only warrant their systems to end users for a year, though, and anyone who has tried to get them to resolve problems post-warranty without paying for it knows how that usually goes.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Most OEMs only warrant their systems to end users for a year, though, and anyone who has tried to get them to resolve problems post-warranty without paying for it knows how that usually goes.
I think Intel is banking on the fact that these customers will hate the OEM more than they hate Intel for their unstable or even non-working systems. It could even make some money for OEMs who get free replacement CPUs from Intel but then charge the customers anywhere from $100 to $300 for "repairs".
 

Steltek

Diamond Member
Mar 29, 2001
3,258
1,006
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I think Intel is banking on the fact that these customers will hate the OEM more than they hate Intel for their unstable or even non-working systems. It could even make some money for OEMs who get free replacement CPUs from Intel but then charge the customers anywhere from $100 to $300 for "repairs".
Yeah, especially when they diagnose "you have a failed motherboard" like the always do on all of those failed CPUs....
 
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