Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Det0x · Aug 7, 2024

cebri1 said:
View attachment 104712
View attachment 104713

Gaming averages at 1080p. Between 10-15%, depending on the benchmarks used.

Pick whatever game collection you want, which dictates if its 10%, 15%, 20% or 25%
It dont really matter for the point i'm trying to make..
The performance increase going from vanilla Z5 to Z5X3D will be larger than going from vanilla Z4 to Z4X3D
And since i have already said too much, i will leave it at that

del42sa · Aug 8, 2024

https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-s...performance-new-arrow-lake-battlemage-updates

Henry swagger · Aug 8, 2024

del42sa said:
https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-s...performance-new-arrow-lake-battlemage-updates

View attachment 104760

ipc will be high from what intel is hinting at .. 20% ipc is still my projection 🤔😁🥇

TwistedAndy · Aug 8, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
LPE and E live on the same tile. And they have the new core topology (Which I believe debuts with ARL? Not sure) which allows LPE cores to be used on any workloads. It's a proper, Arm like, multi-cluster scheduler scheme this time. Unlike MTL weird one.

Arrow Lake is expected to use a very similar topology to Meteor Lake.

DavidC1 said:
10-15% difference in package power is 4-5% in system power. The changes at the package level can induce a change elsewhere, but Meteorlake battery life tests basically confirm they basically are back to the pre-Icelake era. They regressed since then.

Meteor Lake is probably below the initial Intel's targets, but it's pretty good in terms of battery life and power consumption under light loads:

~10-20 hours under the Notebookcheck's web surfing test is a good result.

Obviously, battery life is not the best metric for measuring power efficiency, but it's pretty representative.

Thunder 57 · Aug 8, 2024

Henry swagger said:
ipc will be high from what intel is hinting at .. 20% ipc is still my projection 🤔😁🥇

Than what? RPL?

DavidC1 · Aug 8, 2024

Hitman928 said:
Percentages multiply, not add/subtract.

This part isn't adhered to as strictly as people think. The original Pentium Pro reveal by Intel showed percentages as additions. When you consider that the CPU gets further from the memory as clock increases, then the small difference gets lost through noise.

Also we must remember during the sane days Intel used to give a range rather than oddly specific numbers. It was "15-20%" rather than "19%" which is silly to the level of retarded. But the x86 competition also decided to copy them in that regard too.

Arrowlake is 10-15% faster per clock, which is almost Haswell/Skylake levels of gains(or lack thereof).

TwistedAndy said:
Obviously, battery life is not the best metric for measuring power efficiency, but it's pretty representative.

But that's what people care about. Load battery life is essentially dependent on TDP. It's battery life that's difficult to achieve.

The system has a huge 99WHr battery, which is the absolute limit. At 50WHr which used to be standard until not too long ago, it's mediocre at best. It's Kabylake levels.

SiliconFly · Aug 8, 2024

Det0x said:
Now comes the kicker, dont expect Z5X3D to run at the same clockspeed as Z4X3D

At this point, I don't expect much from competition. Twitter/X has already labelled Zen 5 as Zen 5% due to the meager performance increase. ARL-S is easily gonna surpass Zen 5 this generation. I think it's gonna take a X3D to even barely compete with the top end ARL sku. Now it makes sense why Intel is going for a simple ARL refresh next year instead of a significant upgrade.

Det0x · Aug 8, 2024

SiliconFly said:
At this point, I don't expect much from competition. Twitter/X has already labelled Zen 5 as Zen 5% due to the meager performance increase. ARL-S is easily gonna surpass Zen 5 this generation. I think it's gonna take a X3D to even barely compete with the top end ARL sku. Now it makes sense why Intel is going for a simple ARL refresh next year instead of a significant upgrade.

Well, its one thing to think, hope and expect
But its a other thing when you have hardware in hand

Lets just say we will get a repeat in the builders thread, come embargo date

Hitman928 · Aug 8, 2024

DavidC1 said:
This part isn't adhered to as strictly as people think. The original Pentium Pro reveal by Intel showed percentages as additions.

Then they did it wrong. This isn’t some recommended guidance, it’s just how the math works.

Det0x · Aug 8, 2024

nevermind, posted in wrong thread

AcrosTinus · Aug 8, 2024

I went through the entire release news of the competition, the ball is now in Intel's court.

Give me 10% more ST perf. and 75W less peak power usage and I'm good. Maybe make sure you don't lose the low latency advantage due to the tiles.

Restrict everything to solid defaults and leave performance on the table ! Revive the OC part of "K" instead of giving us max. OC CPUs with no headroom and high voltage.

maddie · Aug 8, 2024

SiliconFly said:
At this point, I don't expect much from competition. Twitter/X has already labelled Zen 5 as Zen 5% due to the meager performance increase. ARL-S is easily gonna surpass Zen 5 this generation. I think it's gonna take a X3D to even barely compete with the top end ARL sku. Now it makes sense why Intel is going for a simple ARL refresh next year instead of a significant upgrade.

Two threads, two poles and none for the main.

Tup3x · Aug 8, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
I went through the entire release news of the competition, the ball is now in Intel's court.

Give me 10% more ST perf. and 75W less peak power usage and I'm good. Maybe make sure you don't lose the low latency advantage due to the tiles.

Restrict everything to solid defaults and leave performance on the table ! Revive the OC part of "K" instead of giving us max. OC CPUs with no headroom and high voltage.

10% more performance (doesn't hurt if applies to MT too) and power usage between 140W-175W for 7 & 9 tier. That would be win.

511 · Aug 8, 2024

Ultra 5 at max 125W PL2 would be the best thing

SiliconFly · Aug 8, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
I went through the entire release news of the competition, the ball is now in Intel's court.

Give me 10% more ST perf. and 75W less peak power usage and I'm good. Maybe make sure you don't lose the low latency advantage due to the tiles.

Restrict everything to solid defaults and leave performance on the table ! Revive the OC part of "K" instead of giving us max. OC CPUs with no headroom and high voltage.

10% ST perf is pretty much a given at this point. May go a bit higher if ARL's LNC is a bit different from LNL's LNC than what some have suggested. Dunno much about power usage numbers (never really cared), but considering ARL-S is getting two solid full-node jumps, efficiency too is a given. Being on N3B and still being as power inefficient as Raptor Lake is simply out of question.

This year, ARL top sku is all set to compete comfortably with top-end Zen5 X3D and may even win by a narrow margin. The Zen advantage has finally come to a conclusion. We now have a pretty much level playing field.

jdubs03 · Aug 8, 2024

Interesting choice there. Probably a cost saving measure, but not sure that is really a value add. Only for H-series SKUs.

Intel Core Ultra 200H "Arrow Lake-H" to feature two types of Efficient cores: Skymont and Crestmont - VideoCardz.com

Mobile Arrow Lake: Not just Lion Cove and Skymont Intel has issued patches for the upcoming Arrow Lake-H series. Intel might be quiet about its next-gen client CPU series, but preparations are underway behind the scenes before the company publicly announces it. The Arrow Lake series will launch...

videocardz.com

Philste · Aug 8, 2024

jdubs03 said:
Interesting choice there. Probably a cost saving measure, but not sure that is really a value add. Only for H-series SKUs.

It's known for ages that Arrow Lake reuses Meteor Lakes SoC-Tiles, so it was clear it will also have 2 Crestmont cores.

IEC · Aug 8, 2024

You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment if you believe in SiliconFly's fantastical optimism.

AcrosTinus · Aug 8, 2024

IEC said:
You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment if you believe in SiliconFly's fantastical optimism.

SiliconFly is right though, expecting 10% more performance, as I do as well, is within what is possible.

inf64 · Aug 8, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
SiliconFly is right though, expecting 10% more performance, as I do as well, is within what is possible.

For MT scenarios yes.

H433x0n · Aug 8, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
SiliconFly is right though, expecting 10% more performance, as I do as well, is within what is possible.

It’s within the realm of possible but probably like a 1 in 20 chance of 10% 1T performance increase.

SiliconFly · Aug 8, 2024

Philste said:
It's known for ages that Arrow Lake reuses Meteor Lakes SoC-Tiles, so it was clear it will also have 2 Crestmont cores.

Yep. It's sad that crestmont still lives. But I'm hoping the ARL-H cpu tile design takes that disadvantage into account. Waiting for the cpu tile die shot.

IEC said:
You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment if you believe in SiliconFly's fantastical optimism.

What does it take for a supermod to believe in me? I can revised it down to 9% if it's acceptable. Many have mentioned this before. Putting it all together, anything less I believe is simply out of bounds if you ask me.

Tup3x · Aug 8, 2024

To be honest, the only thing I expect is much lower power consumption while performance is probably about the same.

SiliconFly · Aug 8, 2024

Tup3x said:
To be honest, the only thing I expect is much lower power consumption while performance is probably about the same.

Tbh, I don't think even Intel can squander a 14% IPC increase to "probably about the same". Not feasible at all.

14% to 10% -> The minimum some (including me) are expecting (I'd say maybe more that 10).
14% to upper single digit -> Most popular expectation.
14% to 0% gains -> Not feasible.

Tup3x · Aug 8, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Tbh, I don't think even Intel can squander a 14% IPC increase to "probably about the same". Not feasible at all.

Well, I sure hope that's not the case but considering what AMD just cooked... It sure is possible that it improves every aspect but who knows.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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