Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Ghostsonplanets · Aug 11, 2024

511 said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1822671710015131772
Apparently Next Forest is not canned

Rogue River, yes. That's a nice surprise if so. RR should employ Artic Wolf E Cores.

So I guess 27 Intel will have Rogue River and Coral Rapids for Server and Razor Lake for DT/Mobile Client. I wonder if Razor is a Nova Lake optimization though? (Like Tiger, Meteor and Panther).

DavidC1 · Aug 11, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
Rogue River, yes. That's a nice surprise if so. RR should employ Artic Wolf E Cores.

Good.

511 said:
Looks like it but mono dies are still good for many use cases and considering wild lake spec I don't think it will go above 100mm2 combined only problem is the ~~Die Hog~~ NPU

Just call it for what it is. Cancer.

DavidC1 · Aug 11, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
Pretty sure they use 64-bit bus, which with LPDDR is akin to "dual-channel". Wildcat Lake will probably use LPDDR only. So I guess it's fine in that sense.

64-bit is single channel by PC terminology, and especially since we're talking about bandwidth.

If they went 64x1-bit are we going to call it 64-channels?

511 · Aug 12, 2024

DavidC1 said:
64-bit is single channel by PC terminology, and especially since we're talking about bandwidth.

If they went 64x1-bit are we going to call it 64-channels?

80 channels with the ECC on DDR5

Wolverine2349 · Aug 14, 2024

Given how underwhelming Ryzen 9000 uplift over Ryzen 7000 in all but AVX512 workloads and some server tasks and Linux stuff, is it safe to say Arrow Lake will handily beat Ryzen. 9000.

And is Ryzen 9000 uplift underwhelming because AMD does not know how to do 6 wide decoder properly? They seemed better with a 4 wide decoder and knew how to do it well with excellent branch prediction.

MS_AT · Aug 14, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
Given how underwhelming Ryzen 9000 uplift over Ryzen 7000 in all but AVX512 workloads and some server tasks and Linux stuff, is it safe to say Arrow Lake will handily beat Ryzen. 9000.

And is Ryzen 9000 uplift underwhelming because AMD does not know how to do 6 wide decoder properly? They seemed better with a 4 wide decoder and knew how to do it well with excellent branch prediction.

AMD doesn't have 6 wide decoder. Each SMT thread gets a 4 wide decoder. If only 1 T is active it's still 4 wide decoder.

Wolverine2349 · Aug 14, 2024

MS_AT said:
AMD doesn't have 6 wide decoder. Each SMT thread gets a 4 wide decoder. If only 1 T is active it's still 4 wide decoder.

Oh ok interesting. I remember all the talk that Zen 5 AMD was finally going to go 6 wide. Why did they not. Maybe that is part of the problem?

511 · Aug 14, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
Given how underwhelming Ryzen 9000 uplift over Ryzen 7000 in all but AVX512 workloads and some server tasks and Linux stuff, is it safe to say Arrow Lake will handily beat Ryzen. 9000.

And is Ryzen 9000 uplift underwhelming because AMD does not know how to do 6 wide decoder properly? They seemed better with a 4 wide decoder and knew how to do it well with excellent branch prediction.

Skymont has 2X Vector Uplift as well so i guess ARL will give Zen 5 a run for it's money in Linux as well vector ports is increased by 33% on LNC and 100% in SKT based on the the ports alone ARL should have decent FP as well

Wolverine2349 · Aug 14, 2024

511 said:
Skymont has 2X Vector Uplift as well so i guess ARL will give Zen 5 a run for it's money in Linux as well vector ports is increased by 33% on LNC and 100% in SKT based on the the ports alone ARL should have decent FP as well

Would it beat 7800X3D in most or all games and blow out Zen 5 vanilla in gaming?

And since vanilla Zen 5 is underwhelming improvement in gaming over vanilla Zen 4, I think Zen 5 3D will probably not be much better than 7800X3D Zen 4?

exitorious · Aug 14, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
Would it beat 7800X3D in most or all games and blow out Zen 5 vanilla in gaming?

And since vanilla Zen 5 is underwhelming improvement in gaming over vanilla Zen 4, I think Zen 5 3D will probably not be much better than 7800X3D Zen 4?

I don't see how Zen 5 3D can really be any better. The current x3d chips were based off the 7000 series and the 9000 series isn't any faster than the 7000 series in games so where would any kind of performance uplift come from?

inf64 · Aug 14, 2024

exitorious said:
I don't see how Zen 5 3D can really be any better. The current x3d chips were based off the 7000 series and the 9000 series isn't any faster than the 7000 series in games so where would any kind of performance uplift come from?

That is not true. 9950X is 8% faster than 7950X:

Ryzen 9 9950X & 9900X: Gaming-Benchmarks: Spiele-Benchmarks auf zwei verschiedenen Grafikkarten

Ryzen 9 9950X & 9900X im Test: Spiele-Benchmarks auf zwei verschiedenen Grafikkarten / Gaming-Benchmarks mit einer GeForce RTX 4090

www.computerbase.de

Couple with improvements that AMD will bring with 9000 series X3D chips (probably higher clocks), I can see 10 to 15% better performance vs 7800X3D with 9800X3D

exitorious · Aug 14, 2024

inf64 said:
That is not true. 9950X is 8% faster than 7950X:

Ryzen 9 9950X & 9900X: Gaming-Benchmarks: Spiele-Benchmarks auf zwei verschiedenen Grafikkarten

Ryzen 9 9950X & 9900X im Test: Spiele-Benchmarks auf zwei verschiedenen Grafikkarten / Gaming-Benchmarks mit einer GeForce RTX 4090

www.computerbase.de

Couple with improvements that AMD will bring with 9000 series X3D chips (probably higher clocks), I can see 10 to 15% better performance vs 7800X3D with 9800X3D

Depends on whos review you believe I suppose: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-9950x/18.html

inf64 · Aug 14, 2024

exitorious said:
Depends on whos review you believe I suppose: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-9950x/18.html

I trust Computerbase due to their historical data. There are obviously some issues with performance of Zen 5 on Windows (it could be BIOS, scheduling, core parking, core isolation, who knows what).

H433x0n · Aug 14, 2024

Huge opportunity for Intel. If ARL-S manages +10% 1T and +20% nT they’ll have the general performance lead for this generation.

Unfortunately it’ll probably end up being +5% 1T and +15% 1T and be basically tied against Zen 5 and launch to a flurry of negative reviews and x86 doomer talk.

gdansk · Aug 14, 2024

H433x0n said:
x86 doomer talk

I'll give Intel props if they can get +10% 1T and +20% MT. Maybe even buy the inevitable 2025 refresh. But I will not be holding back from x86 doomer talk.

SiliconFly · Aug 14, 2024

H433x0n said:
Huge opportunity for Intel. If ARL-S manages +10% 1T and +20% nT they’ll have the general performance lead for this generation.

Unfortunately it’ll probably end up being +5% 1T and +15% 1T and be basically tied against Zen 5 and launch to a flurry of negative reviews and x86 doomer talk.

Unlikely. LNC has a massive 14% IPC uplift. ARL-S final should have close to ~10% perf uplift. And coupled with 16 skymont E cores, MT should be impressive too. This year, ARL-S top sku should easily match or slightly outperform the top X3D part.

CouncilorIrissa · Aug 14, 2024

H433x0n said:
Unfortunately it’ll probably end up being +5% 1T and +15% 1T and be basically tied against Zen 5 and launch to a flurry of negative reviews and x86 doomer talk.

Good thing SDXE flopped as well, eh?

poke01 · Aug 14, 2024

CouncilorIrissa said:
Good thing SDXE flopped as well, eh?

it’s going to another year of flops. We’ll see how the M4 series turns out.

But I have a feeling that Lunar lake will be the best x86 client product this year.

MS_AT · Aug 14, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Unlikely. LNC has a massive 14% IPC uplift. ARL-S final should have close to ~10% perf uplift. And coupled with 16 skymont E cores, MT should be impressive too. This year, ARL-S top sku should easily match or slightly outperform the top X3D part.

IPC alone at this level will not beat memory latency Zen5 is the proof enough [Zen4 matched Zen3x3d, with 13% IPC bump, 12% frequency bump if not more] So while ARL-S might top the charts, in games where x3d leads now thanks to bigger cache, it will keep the lead.

cebri1 · Aug 14, 2024

gdansk said:
I'll give Intel props if they can get +10% 1T and +20% MT. Maybe even buy the inevitable 2025 refresh. But I will not be holding back from x86 doomer talk.

Zen 6 is next year, or another 22 months? If the latter I will join the doomer club. Unless Lunar Lake+BMG turn to be amazing.

gdansk · Aug 14, 2024

cebri1 said:
Zen 6 is next year, or another 22 months? If the latter I will join the doomer club. Unless Lunar Lake+BMG turn to be amazing.

Lunar Lake has the potential to be installed in compelling portable devices. But I'm skeptical it will beat even M3.

Zen 6 is not 2025.

OriAr · Aug 14, 2024

cebri1 said:
Zen 6 is next year, or another 22 months? If the latter I will join the doomer club. Unless Lunar Lake+BMG turn to be amazing.

Zen 6 is looking like early 2027 right now.

cebri1 · Aug 14, 2024

gdansk said:
Lunar Lake has the potential to be installed in compelling portable devices. But I'm skeptical it will beat even M3.

Zen 6 is not 2025.

In ST won't. MT and GPU may be a different story.

poke01 · Aug 14, 2024

cebri1 said:
In ST won't. MT and GPU may be a different story.

M3 has the ST and MT win. GPU idk. We will have to see productivity benchmarks but for gaming Lunar will easily win.
288V(pre-release) https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/7102066

M3

Mac15,13 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Mac15,13 with an Apple M3 processor.

browser.geekbench.com

This is windows vs macOS but scores for the 288V will likely be higher in Linux.

gaav87 · Aug 14, 2024

Arrow lake desktop (arl-s) revision 2 with 3600mhz base clock 5600mt/s ram
8 xe_lpg+ cores (128eu) revision 6, b0 stepping.

https://intel-gfx-ci.01.org/tree/drm-tip/CI_DRM_15209/bat-arls-5/boot0.txt

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