Deep Space Nine was shot on 35mm film, but will not be getting an HD restoration.

shortylickens

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Jul 15, 2003
80,287
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CBS recently announced that Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Star Trek: Voyager were going to be reissued on DVD, leaving many fans to wonder why these shows wouldn’t join the original Star Trek, Star Trek: The Next Generation, and Star Trek: Enterprise on Blu-ray. Unfortunately, there isn’t a simple answer to this question and the details are going to bum out any fan hoping for a ray of high definition hope. Thanks to a new interview though, we now know exactly why these shows will probably never get proper HD restorations.


Go ahead and go grab a snack or a drink, because this Trek News interview with Robert Meyer Burnett, the writer, director, producer and editor of the special features on those amazing Star Trek: The Next Generation Blu-ray sets, is a long one. And you’d better make it a sweet snack or an alcoholic drink, because it’s also a depressing one. I’ve included the basic details below, but I do recommend that you read the whole thing for every detail – it’s fascinating.

Here’s the short version: Deep Space Nine and Voyager, like The Next Generation, were shot on 35mm film. However, all three shows were scanned to videotape for editing and post-production because high definition televisions didn’t exist and there was no point for shows to actually, you know, look good at the time. This meant that beautiful, colorful, crisp footage of each show existed in storage while the only finished versions were crummy videos at NTSC resolution:

In the mid-1980s, the advent of cheaper and cheaper computing technology allowed video post-production to grow more and more sophisticated. Now, a new post-production methodology, once existing only for shows originating on videotape, like soap operas and talk shows, could now be applied to shows shot originally on film. A program could be shot on 35mm film, but instead of editing on film and then cutting negative, the original 35mm material footage would instead be scanned to videotape — at NTSC resolution, and the rest of the post-production process, editing, mixing, etc., would then be completed on tape, at a reduced cost. However, NO FILM NEGATIVE WAS CUT, so the final product would only exist on videotape, at NTSC’s greatly reduced video resolution and color. True blacks, stable reds and rich blues simply didn’t exist on videotape. Those shows originally shot on 35mm, with a 20 megapixel resolution, were never to be seen again if finished on tape.

So the task of bringing The Next Generation to high definition was downright Herculean – the remastering process meant tracking down the 35mm negative for all 178 episodes of the series and literally reconstructing every episode from scratch, using the video edits as a guide. In other words…it was a difficult, arduous process that cost a lot of money and took years to finish:

So a radical notion was proposed…why not go back to the original negative and REBUILD the entire show, from from the ground up, in High Definition? In the history of television, this had never been done before. Essentially, all 178 episodes of TNG (176 if you’re watching the original versions of “Encounter at Farpoint” and “All Good Things”) would have to go through the entire post-production process AGAIN. The original edits would be adhered to exactly, but all the original negative would have to be rescanned, the VFX re-composed, the footage re-color-timed, certain VFX, such as phaser blasts and energy fields, recreated in CG, and the entire soundtrack, originally only finished in 2 channel stereo, would be remastered into thunderous, 7.1 DTS.

And if you’ve seen the Next Generation Blu-rays, you know that they look nothing short spectacular. Like the high definition restorations of the original series, it looks like a whole new show. Seeing The Next Generation look cinematic rather than fuzzy and cheap is mind-blowing. It’s one of the great accomplishments in all of film and television restoration, period.

Unfortunately, the Blu-ray sets arrived as streaming was starting to take hold and physical media sales began to dwindle. The sets underperformed and audiences simply made do with the standard definition episodes available to stream on Netflix. Restoring Deep Space Nine and Voyager, which were never as popular as The Next Generation, would be the equivalent of throwing millions of dollars into a black hole. There aren’t even plans to restore the shows for streaming purposes.

Burnett did note that it would be possible to restore Deep Space Nine and Voyager, noting that tests have been done and they look great. Time and money are the issue:

During the latter seasons of the TNG restoration, Mojo, one of the original, Emmy-Winning VFX artists on Voyager, who, at the time, was still in possession of many of the original DS9 and Voyager VFX assets, did a re-rendering VFX test on footage from “The Sacrifice of Angels.” The test really looked spectacular, and proved it could be done. But again, it would still take very talented VFX artists working long hours to accomplish the number of shots required for the episodes at great cost.

This is all very unfortunate. While never as popular as the other shows, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is my favorite of the series and quite possibly the finest science fiction series ever created (yeah, I said it). I’m more lukewarm on Star Trek: Voyager, but this whole franchise is a cultural institution that deserves to be treasured. Even the weaker stuff deserves to be seen in the best possible way.

The silver lining here is that these shows aren’t going to vanish. We’ll always be able to watch them in some capacity. They’ll just look like garbage. At least Star Trek: Discovery is on the way to hopefully tend to our woes.

I do not agree with the last sentence.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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Huh - I guess I didn't realize they made the effort with TNG. I might have to take a look
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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Huh - I guess I didn't realize they made the effort with TNG. I might have to take a look

The streaming services have the new high def versions running now so it's hard to compare unless you have the standard definition DVDs or can find it online. I remember a number of years back when the remastered version released they ran special events in movie theaters for some of the episodes. It was jarring how much better it looked

Downside is S1 is ROUGH looking.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,777
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i worked with a guy who was at digital domain back when they were doing the vfx on ds9. he pulled out his demo reel which had a cardasian and maybe some other race's ship. even on a pristine 720x480 master the level of detail (polygons and texture) on the ship renders was surprisingly flat and unimpressive. simply put: they rendered for broadcast res and relied heavily on the signal noise of ota and crt to cover up all the sins.

going back and redoing all the vfx shots would be a monumental task, especially with all the ship battles in the jemhadar war. there is no way they can pay for that, at least not with ds9's smaller fanbase. maybe later when it hits cult status but not now.
 
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Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
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I've been following this since they released just a handful of TNG episodes they put through this process as a "preview" of what as possible before they did the whole thing, and it really was an amazing feat from all involved. With that said, I am sorely disappointed DS9 may never get the same treatment as it is my favorite. Voyager not so much. Though I do hope a deal is made someday to make it happen, be it Netflix fronting the money for exclusive DS9/Voyager streaming rights for X number of years or whatever.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
The solution is to scan the film and crowd-source the work to fans. If they can't make money doing it themselves, why not? They could even write a license that gives them exclusive rights to sell the fan edits. The fans just need access to that sweet, sweet, source film.
 

sdifox

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Sep 30, 2005
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The solution is to scan the film and crowd-source the work to fans. If they can't make money doing it themselves, why not? They could even write a license that gives them exclusive rights to sell the fan edits. The fans just need access to that sweet, sweet, source film.
Eh the film part is not the issue, it's the fx shots.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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After reading that I almost feel obligated to buy the remastered TNG episodes despite the fact that I have S3-7 on DVD.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
Eh the film part is not the issue, it's the fx shots.
???

That's exactly what I'm saying. Fans can recreate the effects shots in HD. What they can't do is conjure up an HD film transfer.

Just scan the film and others recreate the effects with a license that says fans can't sell or broadcast the results while the Star Trek rights holders can.

Give fans the footage and let them recreate the effects. It's mostly planet/ship renders, camera shakes, fades, and phaser blasts. There are enough Blender pros out there. It seems fans already love modeling the ships and stations and Borg cubes and what-not.
 
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sdifox

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Sep 30, 2005
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???

The film IS the issue for an HD fan edit. That's precisely what I'm saying: Let others recreate the effects. The fans can do that. What the fans can't do is conjure up the HD film scan of the source footage.

Give fans the footage and let them recreate the effects. It's mostly planet/ship renders, camera shakes, fades, and phaser blasts. A Blender pro could do the whole Enterprise D against the Q blockade pretty easily. It seems fans already love modeling the ships and Borg cubes and what-not.


The computer models is what needs re work, not the film rolls.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
The computer models is what needs re work, not the film rolls.
Duh. How are you not understanding this?

Re-worked computer models with HD renders are what fans can contribute. Fans can't contribute the HD film footage. A few Blender pros could do this with the HD source footage.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
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Duh. How are you not understanding this?

Re-worked computer models with HD renders are what fans can contribute. Fans can't contribute the HD film footage. A few Blender pros could do this with the HD source footage.

So handing over the 35mm is going to accomplish that? You need the original model files to start from.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
So handing over the 35mm is going to accomplish that? You need the original model files to start from.
Yeah, because the HD remaster of TOS used the original CGI models from the 1960s... Give me a break!

No, handing over the footage obviously does not accomplish the work that remains to be done... or else they wouldn't need to crowd-source it at all. It's just what individuals in the crowd-source effort need to get started. Additional work as a group of unpaid contributors accomplishes that. Just what task did you think would get crowd-sourced to fans? I'm specifically saying fans can model the damned ships and stations from scratch. It's easier than ever. Fans do it for fun all the time and there are a wealth of technical diagrams and drawings already available to the public.

Even the TNG remaster needed new CG models because the originals were mostly physical models filmed against a blue screen. CG is obviously easier than creating physical replicas of the original ships where even the original models might reveal flaws in HD.

Let's not forget that many fans are also industry professionals willing to donate their own time. That's how we got that legendary scene from Fatal Farm in the Our Robocop Remake:
(VERY NSFW!)

The SFX guys from Star Trek Voyager went on to make free Internet videos like 405: The Movie purely to demonstrate their talent and bolster their portfolio. Heck, they may even be willing to do an episode or two. If not, well, there's a whole lot of others out there who might want to showcase their abilities and bolster their portfolio. That's what I mean by "crowd source." A team of fans could set up a project with task assignments to other volunteers exactly like so many other crowd-source projects... especially if it has the blessing of Paramount/CBS.
 
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sdifox

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Sep 30, 2005
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Yeah, because the HD remaster of TOS used the original CGI models from the 1960s... Give me a break!

No, handing over the footage obviously does not accomplish the work that remains to be done... or else they wouldn't need to crowd-source it at all. It's just what individuals in the crowd-source effort need to get started. Additional work as a group of unpaid contributors accomplishes that. Just what task did you think would get crowd-sourced to fans? I'm specifically saying fans can model the damned ships and stations from scratch. It's easier than ever. Fans do it for fun all the time and there are a wealth of technical diagrams and drawings already available to the public.

Even the TNG remaster needed new CG models because the originals were mostly physical models filmed against a blue screen. CG is obviously easier than creating physical replicas of the original ships where even the original models might reveal flaws in HD.

Let's not forget that many fans are also industry professionals willing to donate their own time. That's how we got that legendary scene from Fatal Farm in the Our Robocop Remake:
(VERY NSFW!)

The SFX guys from Star Trek Voyager went on to make free Internet videos like 405: The Movie purely to demonstrate their talent and bolster their portfolio. Heck, they may even be willing to do an episode or two. If not, well, there's a whole lot of others out there who might want to showcase their abilities and bolster their portfolio. That's what I mean by "crowd source." A team of fans could set up a project with task assignments to other volunteers exactly like so many other crowd-source projects... especially if it has the blessing of Paramount/CBS.

Sigh, in composite scenes, coordinates is everything. Say you have a Kardashian ship fly by DS9, if you don't have the original model space, how are you going to replicate the flight path? Recreating the ship 3D model is not the issue, making it fit the original frame from 35mm is.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
Sigh, in composite scenes, coordinates is everything. Say you have a Kardashian ship fly by DS9, if you don't have the original model space, how are you going to replicate the flight path? Recreating the ship 3D model is not the issue, making it fit the original frame from 35mm is.
Not even remotely an issue when you are literally recreating the entire scene... the station and the Kardashian ship and the starfield would be modeled and rendered. It would no longer be a composite. Why would you replace the Kardashian ship with CGI and not the DS9 station? I would not even expect HD footage of the station, since I imagine it was composited on video tape after the blue screen. It would be nice to have the original camera shots of the model on the rigging but not required.

Have you even seen what they did in the TOS remaster? The original series used the same shots over and over and over. The same shot of the Enterprise arriving at the same planet with the same chroma keying artifacts on the nacelles and *maybe* a different color for the planet if they needed to use it twice in one episode for two different planets. The remaster completely replaced all of it. Different/approximated angles, different paths, different models, different planets, etc. Not a single bit was from the original series, and that's exactly how they would do the space scenes in a DS9 remaster... whether Paramount did it themselves or outsourced it to the fans.
 
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sdifox

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Not even remotely an issue when you are literally recreating the entire scene... the station and the Kardashian ship and the starfield would be modeled and rendered. It would no longer be a composite. Why would you replace the Kardashian ship with CGI and not the DS9 station? I would not even expect HD footage of the station, since I imagine it was composited on video tape after the blue screen. It would be nice to have the original camera shots of the model on the rigging but not required.

Have you even seen what they did in the TOS remaster? The original series used the same shots over and over and over. The same shot of the Enterprise arriving at the same planet with the same chroma keying artifacts on the nacelles and *maybe* a different color for the planet if they needed to use it twice in one episode for two different planets. The remaster completely replaced all of it. Different/approximated angles, different paths, different models, different planets, etc. Not a single bit was from the original series, and that's exactly how they would do the space scenes in a DS9 remaster... whether Paramount did it themselves or outsourced it to the fans.

was an example. They have to remake the whole show from 35mm source to match the NTSC end product. Compositing is time consuming. DS9 still had some physical models.


Studio Model of DS9





Composite


this place has quite a few pix of the studio models

 
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
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was an example. They have to remake the whole show from 35mm source to match the NTSC end product. Compositing is time consuming. DS9 still had some physical models.


Studio Model of DS9





Composite


this place has quite a few pix of the studio models

Yes, and the remastered Star Trek TOS and TNG we already have no longer use the studio models. The same would be true for a crowd-sourced fan-made remaster. It was a total non-issue then and now since they aren't compositing anything. They aren't trying to regress or revert or restore original detail.

Think, George Lucas' Star Wars Special Editions, not Harmy's Despecialized Editions.
 
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sonodoc

Junior Member
Feb 8, 2024
1
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With DS9 being my favorite this is sad to hear. TNG looks great in HD.
If anyone interested in an HD DS9 remaster, if you are a fan of ST: DS9, you might look for the BluRay “What We Left Behind”. It was a crowdfunded project to produce a documentary about DS9. I helped fund it. In addition to the overall production, for the clips used for the production, Ira Steven Behr and the others involved in production team decided that if they could raise enough funding, they could have DS9 remastered for HD. That turned out to be frightfully expensive. There is film, but it is in multiple storage cans and the logs to where everything is does not have enough detail to find easily any particular scene. The original CG was also done in SD. As a result, they would remaster only scenes to illustrate particular segments of the production BluRay. They sought additional crowdfunding and raised enough to remaster most of the scenes they wanted. Those of us who supported this with additional contributions got not only on the list of supporters but our names on the scenes our funding was used to remaster. So you can see most of those scenes in HD on the BluRay. It’s available on Amazon by the way. The CG was also redone. The final battle scene in the final episode in HD is quite striking.
 
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jimmythejew

Junior Member
Aug 18, 2024
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I do not agree with the last sentence.
I have over 30 years experience editing and dong SFX in post production. I started editing on Tape. I have the longevity to take whatever old Light wave files and take the original everything and upgrade it. I am not sure if it was edited back then on HD because it didn't exist. I worked with the team at Phillip and Sarnoff who created the HDTV standard and I has a small role as a student working on the HDTV execution engine which Sun won the contract with Java. So it was all cut on SD, However, I have the skilled to leap frog technology from the past and make things from the past work by using program updates and saving the files with each successive version of Lightwave or whatever they were using to make things happen.

As a season veteran and qualified head broadcast engineer, I would donate time to make this happen. I can build computers in my sleep including a Hackintosh. So whatever tech hurdles to get old files to work and things up and running after 3 decades, I'm just the guy to do it.

I think it sucks the best Star Trek series ever is not getting the respect it deserves.

Yes I love the final battle. And I was going to comment on Steven Ira Behr's twitter to let him know a person with my experience would be essential to make that happen. I started doing TV with an SVHS vcr sitting on top of a transmitter with a little TV set on top of the VCR which was our TV station. I ate so much crap and worked for free all over the place to gin the experience I have and I have the right Temperament to ensure low budget productions.

In fact, I could be the production coordinator that figures out everything needed and make miracles happen. I would first dig up an old Power mac 200 Mhz to open the original files and then start from there. It might take 4 to 5 older computers to run successive versions of programs to save as, update or even render to get things to sequentially bump up and upscale.

I saw the test render on Sacrifice of Angels went well but the earlier stuff might not be so easy but I already have a plan in my head to get it to work. It really takes someone who worked on tech in the past to do this job and it would be such a gratifying project too. To be able to work on such an awesome show after all this time, wow, that would be great even if I didn't make any money but I think Behr could crowdfund it and people would back it. He's just not thinking like a person with a low budget because they never had to think like that.

Just saying. If anyone from that show sees my comment, hit me up. I am sure there's other people in the industry who might volunteer like me to do a labor of love. The best I can do now is crop my video at 16X10 and it almost remind me of HD. There was a 1080p upscale on torrent files years ago but nobody is even sharing them. It sucks more people don't know how good this show it.
 
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