Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

DavidC1 · Aug 18, 2024

511 said:
and 18A are one the later being superset of previous half node also the cost 20A is expensive than Intel 7 but for the PPA it becomes better their foundry cost structure improves...

Unless Intel clarifies it, 18A has only 15% perf/watt gain over Intel 3. Meaning 20A itself is zero. That lends credence to why only a subset of desktop is using 20A.

20A is a big wallop of nothing.

511 said:
Yes it is using SAQP basically to print a pattern they have to go through the process 4 times EUV would have made that 1 times so simplification also 10nm has weird quirk like Cobalt being

He's never gonna give up his "10nm yield is bad" mantra.

Wolverine2349 said:
Which things are they consolidating that they should not in your opinion?

Sorry this was when they were talking about E and P core teams being merged and the Forest line being cancelled, which now I know is at this point not cancelled.

The Falcon Shores cancellation to me is enough. Maybe he became a software guy after being at VMWare for so long. The thing is FS is not only delayed but it's only coming in a GPU-only variant which I don't think will do as well as MI300. It's the CPU-GPU hybrid they cancelled. That's coming even later.

GPU seems still a weakness for Intel based on Falcon Shores change. The whole talk during ARC about thinking "we thought iGPU drivers would have been enough" does not inspire confidence here either. So what Intel was telling you is that the entire high-level management thought their solely profit oriented, HD Audio like iGPUs of theirs was enough for an intensely competitive gaming market?

That kinda puts me in doubt whether Pat could have made Larrabbee successful. He said they could have been the leader instead. I'm not sure how if they didn't get the crux of the issue in 2022 they would have got it in 2010. Talking to 5 enthusiasts in Anandtech would have been enough to get what they needed to do. That's an embarassment.

jpiniero · Aug 18, 2024

511 said:
The yields are not garbage tbh otherwise we will not see such big dies of EMR

Or they just burn more wafers. Lots and lots of wafers.

Remember 10 nm's capacity was intended with Intel having 90% server market share.

DavidC1 · Aug 18, 2024

Intel's real problem isn't whether Lunarlake, Arrowlake, nor how 18A chips will do. No none of it really matters.

I think the biggest problem facing them is the Raptorlake degradation issue. This is Pentium III 1.13GHz again, but over a much longer period and with many more affected SKUs.

People are going to remember this. Those that went through reported horrific RMA treatment and failures are going to erase Intel from their minds for a decade. $19 stock price may be too high for them. I'm sorry to call doom and gloom but they are not in a position to afford any of this.

The $30 billion PC market is the only thing holding the company afloat. Remember Raptorlake also was a high point in the recent history of the company. To win 1% margins, revenue and performance lead, that's going to now lead into potential bankruptcy.

DrMrLordX · Aug 18, 2024

DavidC1 said:
People are going to remember this.

As well they should. Think twice before dealing with a company that handles two generations of defective CPUs in such a fashion.

AMDK11 · Aug 18, 2024

My thoughts on Arrow Lake-S, especially the LionCove core. Personally, I suspect that LionCove in ArrowLake-S will have a different IPC than LionCove in LunarLake. But time will verify this.

Intel reports an average IPC increase of +14% for LionCove with LunarLake compared to RedwoodCove with MeteorLake. Most would say this is a very small gain. Without further thought and knowledge, one might agree with this, but as usual, the devil is in the details.

First, RedwoodCove and GoldenCove have HT(SMT), which is included in the IPC growth curve. Additionally, the average IPC increase for SunnyCove +18% and GoldenCove +19% also includes AVX512 instructions.

LionCove in LunarLake has neither AVX512 nor SMT. I wonder how much IPC Zen5 gains without SMT and AVX512.

Considering the average IPC increase of +14% for LionCove without SMT, compared to RedwoodCove with SMT, the gain may be greater for ST than you might think.

desrever · Aug 18, 2024

DavidC1 said:
People are going to remember this

Most people never even knew this and the rest had already mostly forgotten. Anyone mentioning this on Reddit is already being downvoted.

Doug S · Aug 18, 2024

DavidC1 said:
People are going to remember this. Those that went through reported horrific RMA treatment and failures are going to erase Intel from their minds for a decade. $19 stock price may be too high for them. I'm sorry to call doom and gloom but they are not in a position to afford any of this.

You have to consider the only people going through "horrific RMA treatment and failures" are those who bought boxed Intel CPUs. People who bought a PC from Dell, or a server from HP haven't dealt with Intel at all on this. If they had horrific RMA treatment that's on Dell or HP, not Intel.

So sure maybe this will create a stain in people's memory and the kind of people who build their own gaming rig will stay away from Intel. Even if they lost ALL such people, this is a low single digit percentage of Intel's overall revenue and profit. Because cloud sales are unaffected. Server sales are unaffected. Laptop sales are unaffected. Corporate sales are unaffected. The mass consumer sales to people who buy a "PC" rather than a "CPU" are unaffected. The nascent foundry business is unaffected.

I know people who read forums like this and build their own PCs in far greater numbers than the general public want to believe they are a very important part of the x86 world and Intel or AMD can't survive without their business, but they are simply not important their overall business. And they've become less important over the years, as the reasons/benefits of "DIY" are not what they used to be.

Intel's future success or failure will not hinge (or even be affected to any measurable degree) by whether or not the niche market of people who buy boxed CPUs are willing to forgive Intel or abandon them for AMD for an entire decade. Intel has a lot of work to do to recover, but they've already done EVERYTHING they need to or can do for the people who bought Intel CPUs with the extended warranty. Those who hold a long term grudge (and there will be many, you STILL hear "rootkit" mentioned online if Sony is brought up) are not anything Intel is going to worry about.

511 · Aug 18, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
As well they should. Think twice before dealing with a company that handles two generations of defective CPUs in such a fashion.

Tbh it's one generation made two 🤣 but yeah there are just too many issues piling up.on them just cause previous CEOs were dork Lisa Su and Jensen Huang Should thank Brian Kranzich after all without him it would have been impossible 🤣🤣 . I remember Ann Kehlle saying 10nm didn't get funding everything went into share buyback

DavidC1 · Aug 18, 2024

AMDK11 said:
First, RedwoodCove and GoldenCove have HT(SMT), which is included in the IPC growth curve. Additionally, the average IPC increase for SunnyCove +18% and GoldenCove +19% also includes AVX512 instructions.

Perf/clock is typically SpecInt and FP 1-copy which doesn't include HT and doesn't benefit from any SIMD extensions either. You are saying the % are under MT.

It would be misleading otherwise, because it could also mean the gains might end up being much less too. The architects know this. Because that's actually the hard part to improve.

Wolverine2349 · Aug 18, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Intel's real problem isn't whether Lunarlake, Arrowlake, nor how 18A chips will do. No none of it really matters.

I think the biggest problem facing them is the Raptorlake degradation issue. This is Pentium III 1.13GHz again, but over a much longer period and with many more affected SKUs.

People are going to remember this. Those that went through reported horrific RMA treatment and failures are going to erase Intel from their minds for a decade. $19 stock price may be too high for them. I'm sorry to call doom and gloom but they are not in a position to afford any of this.

The $30 billion PC market is the only thing holding the company afloat. Remember Raptorlake also was a high point in the recent history of the company. To win 1% margins, revenue and performance lead, that's going to now lead into potential bankruptcy.

Describe over a much longer period Raptor Lake degradation than Pentium III 1.13GHz. I was in high school during Pentium III 1.13GHz. What is worse about the Raptor Lake degradation issue?

Thunder 57 · Aug 18, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
Describe over a much longer period Raptor Lake degradation than Pentium III 1.13GHz. I was in high school during Pentium III 1.13GHz. What is worse about the Raptor Lake degradation issue?

You can't be serious...

The P3 1.13Ghz issue was found almost right away in review samples. The major tech sites (HardOCP, Toms, eventually AT IIRC) of the time compared notes and samples and it was quickly determined to be a flawed product. It was recalled in short order and few made it into the wild as the ODM's typically got first dibs.

RPL has gone on for two generations with a degradation problem that seemingly wasn't obvious at first. Untold amounts have been sold and many models are potentially effected down to mainstream 65W parts, not just a single SKU. Intel took their time responding to the issue as well as deciding on what the fix is. They got into a situation where they seem to not have enough CPU's ready to fulfill RMA requests and there have been horror stories there. Intel has changed their guidance on tray CPU's I believe three times according to GN. It's been a disastor. The bad press and financies prove it.

P3 1.13Ghz was hitting a speed bump to fast and damaging your car. RPL has been a train wreck.

Wolverine2349 · Aug 18, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
You can't be serious...

The P3 1.13Ghz issue was found almost right away in review samples. The major tech sites (HardOCP, Toms, eventually AT IIRC) of the time compared notes and samples and it was quickly determined to be a flawed product. It was recalled in short order and few made it into the wild as the ODM's typically got first dibs.

RPL has gone on for two generations with a degradation problem that seemingly wasn't obvious at first. Untold amounts have been sold and many models are potentially affected down to mainstream 65W parts, not just a single SKU. Intel took their time responding to the issue as well as deciding on what the fix is. They got into a situation where they seem to not have enough CPU's ready to fullfil RMA requests and there have been horror stories there. Intel has changed their guidance on tray CPU's I believe three times according to GN. It's been a disastor. The bad press and financies prove it.

P3 1.13Ghz was hitting a speed bump to fast and damaging your car. RPL has been a train wreck.

Sorry I was in high school 10th grade during P 1.13GHz era and never yet built my first computer. I had a P3 600MHz Dell prebuilt. I did not know that. But yes it now makes sense. I started building PCs in March 2002 well after that.

RPL so much worse. I mean my god so much denial and stating to was bad user skill with RAM XMP overclocking on unstable RPL systems. I felt they were never stable despite so many claiming it was user error.

RPL is a mess., Could it bankrupt intel??

poke01 · Aug 18, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
You can't be serious...

The P3 1.13Ghz issue was found almost right away in review samples. The major tech sites (HardOCP, Toms, eventually AT IIRC) of the time compared notes and samples and it was quickly determined to be a flawed product. It was recalled in short order and few made it into the wild as the ODM's typically got first dibs.

RPL has gone on for two generations with a degradation problem that seemingly wasn't obvious at first. Untold amounts have been sold and many models are potentially affected down to mainstream 65W parts, not just a single SKU. Intel took their time responding to the issue as well as deciding on what the fix is. They got into a situation where they seem to not have enough CPU's ready to fullfil RMA requests and there have been horror stories there. Intel has changed their guidance on tray CPU's I believe three times according to GN. It's been a disastor. The bad press and financies prove it.

P3 1.13Ghz was hitting a speed bump to fast and damaging your car. RPL has been a train wreck.

Has Intel apologised regarding this matter?

Nope, that is showing. Even Apple apologised for the horrible Keyboards debacle, Apple the ego company.

The last apology to come out of Intel is the one for China in 2021 and I will leave that there.

Seems to me that Intel just wants to move and can’t even provide a PR apology. It goes a long way with customers.

Thunder 57 · Aug 18, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
Sorry I was in high school 10th grade during P 1.13GHz era and never yet built my first computer. I had a P3 600MHz Dell prebuilt. I did not know that. But yes it now makes sense. I started building PCs in March 2002 well after that.

RPL so much worse. I mean my god so much denial and stating to was bad user skill with RAM XMP overclocking on unstable RPL systems. I felt they were never stable despite so many claiming it was user error.

RPL is a mess., Could it bankrupt intel??

No problem. I think you are actually a year or two older than I am, but I got into computers early because of my dad. He gave me a hand down pre built K6-2 500MHz. I picked that instead of a PII-450 because it had more MHz lol. In later 2002 I built my own for the first time since I had started a part time job earlier in the year.

I very much doubt it will bankrupt Intel. The problem is they keep finding ways to screw up or underdeliver. If you had told me even after Zen launched in 2017 that AMD would have twice the market cap as Intel, I would've laughed. Everyone would have. AMD, NVIDIA, and TSMC have all executed well (except AMD lately) while Intel is still trying to right the ship. I am optimistic about Lunar Lake but less sold on ARL.

reb0rn · Aug 18, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
As well they should. Think twice before dealing with a company that handles two generations of defective CPUs in such a fashion.

I have 2 defective CPU and 2 on RMA all from 15 AMD cpu i own 7900x (need PBO+10 overvolt for plain stability) and 7950x (unstable on over 130w after few months - degradation 100%) and had 2x RMA on 5900x and one 5950x (just bad bin and unstable)... so I would say same for AMD, but I know it's forbidden to talk truth about past underdog

At last they cut power down for 99xx and I can guess why... and I might get more AMD but to trust them or some youtube and freaks all over forum hyping it for years, no thanks

Just one new 13700k working just fine, but I have no idea in reality of the issue other then the huge FUD from clueless ppl mostly

DrMrLordX · Aug 18, 2024

511 said:
Tbh it's one generation made two 🤣

While that's true, Intel went out of their way to give Raptor Lake Refresh its own generation. Now they have to own it.

Thunder 57 said:
RPL has been a train wreck.

It's more like a cheaply-built apartment building that collapses slowly after people have moved into it, possibly because the developer cut corners. People are heavily-invested in Raptor Lake, and there's no easy way out of it.

reb0rn said:
I have 2 defective CPU and 2 on RMA all from 15 AMD cpu i own 7900x (need PBO+10 overvolt for plain stability) and 7950x (unstable on over 130w after few months - degradation 100%) and had 2x RMA on 5900x and one 5950x (just bad bin and unstable)... so I would say same for AMD, but I know it's forbidden to talk truth about past underdog

It's not forbidden, it's just that your issue is:

a). unrelated to the topic of this thread and
b). not documented to be a widespread problem

Wolverine2349 · Aug 18, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
No problem. I think you are actually a year or two older than I am, but I got into computers early because of my dad. He gave me a hand down pre built K6-2 500MHz. I picked that instead of a PII-450 because it had more MHz lol. In later 2002 I built my own for the first time since I had started a part time job earlier in the year.

I very much doubt it will bankrupt Intel. The problem is they keep finding ways to screw up or underdeliver. If you had told me even after Zen launched in 2017 that AMD would have twice the market cap as Intel, I would've laughed. Everyone would have. AMD, NVIDIA, and TSMC have all executed well (except AMD lately) while Intel is still trying to right the ship. I am optimistic about Lunar Lake but less sold on ARL.

Well AMD has twice market csp as intel based on stock price.

Who has more assets and equity and less debt.

511 · Aug 19, 2024

Their Debt is bet on future no matter how good or bad it is we have seen so many issues in the last quarter Revenue loss RPL Issue everyone trying to get into CPU Market it will be a rollercoaster ride and it will be fun to see what happens to Intel i bet we will see extreme scenarios either good or bad so hang on tight and enjoy 🙂

DavidC1 · Aug 19, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
Describe over a much longer period Raptor Lake degradation than Pentium III 1.13GHz. I was in high school during Pentium III 1.13GHz. What is worse about the Raptor Lake degradation issue?

I was in high school too.

@Thunder 57 explained it very well.

They won't get bankrupt right away(I think). But this will be looked on as the final catalyst.

During the Pentium III debacle, they had much less debt, the overall macroeconomy was more stable/stronger, and Intel had their main strength, their fabs. No mobile threat either. AMD wasn't strong enough to take all categories either. Their mobile was very strong.

Remember how they are still at 80% marketshare for client? People, and companies were talking about why they were quiet about the degradation issue. On the degradation thread some said because it was because they feared "repercussions" by Intel, that they won't get subsidies or something. This is going to crack that barrier. It enables AMD to break that wide open, change the trend.

Doug S said:
I know people who read forums like this and build their own PCs in far greater numbers than the general public want to believe they are a very important part of the x86 world and Intel or AMD can't survive without their business, but they are simply not important their overall business.

You shouldn't underestimate this either. One guy in the Raptorlake degradation thread talks about being responsible for 2500 PCs. Minor in the long run, but that means that particular individual = 2500.

You think the server guys won't take notice? They absolutely value reliability and stability. What does the whole thing say about the company? Maybe it's FUD by some, but some will think that way no? Like I said I think the market rewarded Intel for treating customers well with the 6 series chipset issue.

What about a year or two ago when it showed that Intel's strength was in the desktop market because they took share in the Alderlake/Raptorlake generation? Desktops are smaller but it's big enough to make client look not so bad.

Thunder 57 · Aug 19, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
Well AMD has twice market csp as intel based on stock price.

Who has more assets and equity and less debt.

I was just making an observation, I am not a finance guy. No need to get defensive.

alcoholbob · Aug 19, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
It makes a difference and it will grow.

10 p core comet lake please. IPC is so far inferior and behind even Zen 3 and stuck at PCIe Gen 3 lol.

But the gaming market unfortunately too small for intel to care or care about those big.little scheduling quirks.

I wish they had a 12 p core ARL coming but doubtful certainly not right away if ever. It is what it is.

If they do release it it will be like Bartlett Lake, it’ll come 3 years later when they are about to launch a new generation anyway so they can dump excess server CPUs onto the consumer market. Nobody is going to get it for gaming because there’s always going to be a better alternative.

alcoholbob · Aug 19, 2024

Henry swagger said:
Arrow lake performance will be very big.. intel has veen good at hiding its true performance

You mean tuning TDP until the last minute to win Tech Tuber benchmarks.

Thunder 57 · Aug 19, 2024

alcoholbob said:
If they do release it it will be like Bartlett Lake, it’ll come 3 years later when they are about to launch a new generation anyway so they can dump excess server CPUs onto the consumer market. Nobody is going to get it for gaming because there’s always going to be a better alternative.

Well some people want a mythical chip that is unlikely to come to market for reasons, rather than get a 7800X3D or a 9800X3D later this year for gaming and I just do not understand that.

SiliconFly · Aug 19, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
Well some people want a mythical chip that is unlikely to come to market for reasons, rather than get a 7800X3D or a 9800X3D later this year for gaming and I just do not understand that.

Why buy a real chip when we can... wait for an imaginary one! 🖖

Wolverine2349 · Aug 19, 2024

alcoholbob said:
If they do release it it will be like Bartlett Lake, it’ll come 3 years later when they are about to launch a new generation anyway so they can dump excess server CPUs onto the consumer market. Nobody is going to get it for gaming because there’s always going to be a better alternative.

Well as long as its stable and does not have degradation (Decent chance with new stepping and die), it will be a gaming monster and desirable for thread heavy games and lightly threaded games for a single set and forget it solution of all game types for those who hate APO and process Lasso and want all cores on one die.

Especially given Zen 5 is an underwhelming 5% at best gaming uplift flop over vanilla Zen 4 and current Raptor Lake already trades blows or only slightly behind 7800X3D in gaming. And 7800X3D and vanilla Zen 4 and 5 only 8 cores on one CCX within a CCD. Yes current RPL has bad stability and degradation, but if that is fixed with 12 + 0 Bartlett Lake die, its game on.

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