Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

poke01 · Aug 21, 2024

TwistedAndy said:
Also, there are some results for Geekbench 5. The P-core in Intel Core 285K matches the one in Apple M4:

That M4 score is throttled. Here's the non-throttled one. Most of the M4 scores will be lower because you know thin tablet, it peaks at around ~2700-2750 in GB5.
There is a difference when the frequency is maintained throughout the test.
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/22615013?baseline=22798191

Abwx · Aug 21, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Nope. Check the videocardzGB6 numbers (all stock). 9950X is 3335 & 285K is 3450. That puts 285K around 3.5% ahead of 9950X.

I posted Computerbase since all their tests are at stock 5600 RAM using the latest AGESA contrary to random GB subsmissions whose most were done before the CPU was launched and with old AGESAs, hence the low average.

Beside even for the 14900K at 5600 RAM they have a higher number than the average GB submissions that often use higher speed RAM but are done by PCs that run some light background tasks when tested by random users.

branch_suggestion · Aug 21, 2024

Status quo, LNL is the only Intel part that actually makes a difference in their footing.

TwistedAndy · Aug 21, 2024

poke01 said:
That M4 score is throttled. Here's the non-throttled one. Most of the M4 scores will be lower because you know thin tablet, it peaks at around ~2700-2750 in GB5.
There is a difference when the frequency is maintained throughout the test.
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/22615013?baseline=22798191

Here are a dozen of the latest Geekbench results for Apple M4. I don't see 2700-2750 there. The regular scores are closer to 2500-2600.

2700-2750 were probably obtained under LN as Geekerwan did.

Henry swagger · Aug 21, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Very interesting! But I don't think it's fair to compare a sub-28W M4 with a 285K that runs at excess of 100W or something.

Just comparing ipc.. apple is the main competition with intel in terns of ipc

Henry swagger · Aug 21, 2024

TwistedAndy said:
Here are a dozen of the latest Geekbench results for Apple M4. I don't see 2700-2750 there. The regular scores are closer to 2500-2600.

2700-2750 were probably obtained under LN as Geekerwan did.

Matching apple p core with just 500 robs.. cougar cove will have even higher ipc 🙂

poke01 · Aug 21, 2024

TwistedAndy said:
2700-2750 were probably obtained under LN as Geekerwan did.

Most likely the freezer. Almost all of results in the screenshot the freqency is not maintained and if it is maintained it would score around 2700. This shouldn't be an issue for Macs with fans.
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/22615013.gb5

},
"processor_frequency": {
"frequencies": [
4407,
4405,
4394,
4399,
4392,
4402,
4402,
4402,
4408,
4396,
4401,
4406,
4399,
4396,
4406,
4402,
4338,
4403,
4398,
4405,
4397,
4396,
4406,
4402,
4397,
4406,
4403,
4407,
4402,
4397,
4401,
4401,
4402,
4408,
4402,
4390,
4398,
4403,
4407,
4407,
4403,
4404,
4391,
4371
]
},

The ones that are throttled score around ~2500.

Geekbench Browser

"processor_frequency": {
"frequencies": [
4388,
4401,
4394,
4392,
4380,
4393,
4401,
4409,
4395,
4390,
4394,
4398,
4391,
4403,
4393,
4398,
4381,
4384,
4394,
4383,
4388,
4388,
4386,
4330,
4386,
4396,
4395,
4396,
4400,
4396,
4394,
4382,
4393,
4389,
4396,
4381,
4389,
4399,
4385,
4395,
4394,
4395,
4395,
4399
]
},

poke01 · Aug 21, 2024

Henry swagger said:
Matching apple p core with just 500 robs.. cougar cove will have even higher ipc 🙂

Yeah I wonder how Intel's P cores will evolve, Intel did say they were focused on IPC instead of clock improvements now. But keep in mind that is 4.40GHz vs 5.7GHz Intel has a long way too go to match Apple in IPC.

At this rate the E-core team will surpass the P core.

SiliconFly · Aug 21, 2024

Abwx said:
I posted Computerbase since all their tests are at stock 5600 RAM using the latest AGESA contrary to random GB subsmissions whose most were done before the CPU was launched and with old AGESAs, hence the low average.

Beside even for the 14900K at 5600 RAM they have a higher number than the average GB submissions that often use higher speed RAM but are done by PCs that run some light background tasks when tested by random users.

Thats invalid. Test 285K at recommended settings including RAM (not 5600).

Hence, 285K is 3.5% ahead of 9950X. No doubts.

Henry swagger · Aug 21, 2024

poke01 said:
Yeah I wonder how Intel's P cores will evolve, Intel did say they were focused on IPC instead of clock improvements now. But keep in mind that is 4.40GHz vs 5.7GHz Intel has a long way too go to match Apple in IPC.

At this rate the E-core team will surpass the P core.

Yeah per clock ipc apple is way ahead.. i think darkmont or arctic wolf will catch apple on a per clock ipc

Abwx · Aug 21, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Thats invalid. Test 285K at recommended settings including RAM (not 5600).

Hence, 285K is 3.5% ahead of 9950X. No doubts.

Latest AGESA was received by Computerbase 4 days before the reviews days, actually they only had 3 days to do the tests, so all others AGESA, thats is, the totality of what was submited at GB before August 14, are invalid by the definition.

That being said i m curious of your reaction once some other submissions of the 285K are done at GB and that some scores are lower, because a single test is not representative statistically wise.

511 · Aug 21, 2024

Henry swagger said:
Yeah per clock ipc apple is way ahead.. i think darkmont or arctic wolf will catch apple on a per clock ipc

Darkmont won't it is similar to Crestmont vs Gracemont so i think 5-7% IPC on a even better node considering TSMC Said 18A rivals N3P

TwistedAndy · Aug 21, 2024

poke01 said:
Most likely the freezer. Almost all of results in the screenshot the freqency is not maintained and if it is maintained it would score around 2700. This shouldn't be an issue for Macs with fans.
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/22615013.gb5

There is something wrong with those clocks because the averages are 4400 for the first result and 4390 for the other ones. It's a 0.2% difference.

So, most results between 2500 and 2600 are valid and not throttled.

There are some weird scores (less than 2400 and more than 2700), but they are not representative and should be excluded from the analysis as outliers (if we want to stay objective, of course).

SiliconFly · Aug 21, 2024

Something interesting and a bit hilarious from a wccftech article (considering how it's worded):

"Intel Core Ultra 9 285K “Arrow Lake” CPU Blazes Past Core i9-14900KS & Ryzen 9 9950X In Benchmark Leak"

"This puts the chip on the top of the charts in the Geekbench 6 performance rating."

"The CPU ends up 8% faster than the Core i9-14900KS & 4% faster than the Ryzen 9 9950X in single-core tests."

"Versus its true predecessor, the Intel Core i9-14900K, the CPU scores an 11.7% lead in single-core and a 10.2% lead in multi-core tests."

"Once again, these are decent gains but we can expect better performance once the final silicon gets tested."

Oh man! It's been years since Intel got reviews like these!!!

SiliconFly · Aug 21, 2024

Abwx said:
Latest AGESA was received by Computerbase 4 days before the reviews days, actually they only had 3 days to do the tests, so all others AGESA, thats is, the totality of what was submited at GB before August 14, are invalid by the definition.

So be it.

Abwx · Aug 21, 2024

SiliconFly said:
So be it.

You answered before i ended editing my post....

SiliconFly · Aug 21, 2024

Ok. It's time for me prepare a "I told you so" list of all the people who said this ARL generation will only get a lower single digit % performance uplift in ST. Whereas, it's already showing 11.7% ST gains against previous gen equivalent 14900K and this isn't final silicon yet!

There are many people in the list, with whom shall I start?

Henry swagger · Aug 21, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Ok. It's time for me prepare a "I told you so" list of all the people who said this ARL generation will only get a lower single digit % performance uplift in ST. Whereas, it's already showing 11.7% ST gains against previous gen equivalent 14900K and this isn't final silicon yet!

There are many people in the list, with whom shall I start?

Mild said arrow lake refresh will uave even higher clocks

KompuKare · Aug 21, 2024

Henry swagger said:
Yeah per clock ipc apple is way ahead.. i think darkmont or arctic wolf will catch apple on a per clock ipc

Surely the "per clock" is totally irrelevant when talking about IPC (Instructions Per Cycle).

While the x86 vendors get close to Apple they do so use way more power.

cebri1 · Aug 21, 2024

Henry swagger said:
Mild said arrow lake refresh will uave even higher clocks

Now we cannot rule out clock regression

Magio · Aug 21, 2024

KompuKare said:
Surely the "per clock" is totally irrelevant when talking about IPC (Instructions Per Cycle).

While the x86 vendors get close to Apple they do so use way more power.

For single core that continues to be true however LNL will be pretty close to a M3 in MT scenarios at comparable power, on the same node. (M4 will be ahead but on N3E instead of N3B.)

poke01 · Aug 21, 2024

this is just Geekbench, we still have to test many more. Cinebench. Productivity tests, web tests, gaming etc

Edit: skymont is star here

SiliconFly · Aug 21, 2024

poke01 said:
this is just Geekbench, we still have to test many more. Cinebench. Productivity tests, web tests, gaming etc

Edit: skymont is star here

True. Skymont kicks a**!

Hulk · Aug 21, 2024

poke01 said:
this is just Geekbench, we still have to test many more. Cinebench. Productivity tests, web tests, gaming etc

Edit: skymont is star here

Looks like it's everything Intel said it was. Can't wait for actual tests with real software. Top of the AMD/Intel stack will once again be neck-and-neck in performance.

SiliconFly · Aug 21, 2024

Hulk said:
... Top of the AMD/Intel stack will once again be neck-and-neck in performance.

Very true. But I'd like to remind that 285K is still 3.5% faster than 9950X.

I know 3.5% gain isn't much and might even fall within margin of error, but it's very important to note that for the first time in many years, Intel has come out with a product that feels truly competitive and is pretty much neck-to-neck with competition. Meaning, definitely not lagging significantly anymore. Also, equal footing is apt too.

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