Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

igor_kavinski · Aug 29, 2024

jdubs03 said:
View attachment 106471

Salt? I'll take that with a generous helping of watermelon, thank you. Sounds perfectly like the Intel we know.

igor_kavinski · Aug 29, 2024

dullard said:
You are thinking video, which is valid. But I think of still images like photography, CAD/Solidworks, and science/medical image analysis.

And of course, all the game benchmark data that can fit onto an Excel sheet on an 8K screen without having to scroll!

Nothingness · Aug 29, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
And of course, all the game benchmark data that can fit onto an Excel sheet on an 8K screen without having to scroll!

You mean the game benchmarks that are run at 720p low quality need an 8k screen to be listed? On my side, I couldn't care less, so a 0k screen is enough 😁

TESKATLIPOKA · Aug 29, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Don't think so. The tGPU part in ARL is poor. But not the CPU part in ARL. Every review/leak out there has put Lion Cove and Skymont well ahead of competition's equivalent one way or another. And ARL LNC final IPC hasn't even been revealed yet. The last leak stands at a massive 18% uplift for ARL's LNC (a few pages back). Zen 5 doesn't stand much of a chance this time around (including halo).

We are talking about 6 Lion Coves + 8 Skymonts vs 16 Zen5. How you got that It will be competitive is something I don't understand and I don't mean in ST performance but nT.
Skymont has no SMT(HT) and it should have lower IPC than Zen5, Lion Cove even with SMT enabled and possibly higher IPC than Zen5 is still missing 2 cores.
Basic math simply doesn't add up with what you claim about how Halo doesn't stand a change.

511 · Aug 29, 2024

jdubs03 said:
It would be managerial malpractice to just dump the project if the benefit down the road was to be very significant. But Intels’ management has been making solid decisions for the past decade or so. And that’s the source of the worries.

You mean since paul otelleni like 20 years after craig barrette Intel has been downhill we can forgot the trinity they had no equal IMHO.

They lack visionary and competent leader and need to remove Middle management we hoped pat was that but 3 years into job and we haven't gotten good results I can't blame totally on Pat cause the issue has been accumulating since BK at least paul hadn't missed any node deadline it will take more time also the fact that if intel quits foundry US can say goodby to the only leading edge chip maker it has a huge blow Intel can't compete with TSMCs scale until some missteps by TSMC or miracle by Intel and also the fact they were so late to GPU party they should never have killed GPU pat was against it at least most of the decisions now seems in the rear view mirror

Hulk · Aug 29, 2024

dullard said:
You are thinking video, which is valid. But I think of still images like photography, CAD/Solidworks, science/medical image analysis, productivity software (such as large Excel sheets or many lines of code). With just about any flagship phone (or DSLR camera), an 8K monitor is insufficient to see their images from the main camera without artifacts caused by downscaling. And those image artifacts are independent of the monitor distance from the viewer.

Yes, there are human limitations, but for still images 8K is far from that limitation due to downscaling or anti-aliasing needed. I personally get frustrated in Solidworks trying to select an exact line in the middle of multiple anti-aliased lines. A ~16K monitor (if I had one), even 3 feet from my eyes, would really help that task.

Plus, GPUs are used for many other things than high resolution gaming graphics. Crypto, blockchain, AI, rendering, etc.

Edited: added productivity software as suggested by igor_kavinski

Okay yes, that makes sense. I was thinking video so if those super high resolution devices aren't produced on a mass scale prices tend to remain niche market high.

DavidC1 · Aug 29, 2024

del42sa said:
https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-arrow-lake-halo-is-real-but-it-wont-be-available-soon

some posts are moot

It seems to be it's disprove the previously reliable leakers month.

511 said:
You mean since paul otelleni like 20 years after craig barrette Intel has been downhill we can forgot the trinity they had no equal IMHO.

Yea they didn't have a properly good CEO since the founders. Craig Barrett/Paul Otellini/Brian Kraznich all sucked.

Doug S · Aug 29, 2024

dullard said:
You are thinking video, which is valid. But I think of still images like photography, CAD/Solidworks, science/medical image analysis, productivity software (such as large Excel sheets or many lines of code). With just about any flagship phone (or DSLR camera), an 8K monitor is insufficient to see their images from the main camera without artifacts caused by downscaling. And those image artifacts are independent of the monitor distance from the viewer.

Yes, there are human limitations, but for still images 8K is far from that limitation due to downscaling or anti-aliasing needed. I personally get frustrated in Solidworks trying to select an exact line in the middle of multiple anti-aliased lines. A ~16K monitor (if I had one), even 3 feet from my eyes, would really help that task.

Plus, GPUs are used for many other things than high resolution gaming graphics. Crypto, blockchain, AI, rendering, etc.

Edited: added productivity software as suggested by igor_kavinski

Why do you need to display the entire image on the monitor, zooming into a larger image is a thing. That's already the case for medical image viewing, stuff like PET/CT combined whole body scans produce much higher resolutions than any monitor will ever be able to display, but there's no need to display the entire image at maximum resolution. Much easier to select a portion that's of interest and zoom in, having a sliding window if you want to follow along features that are larger than your window (like maybe if you want to check out a blood vessel path or long bone)

Not only is zooming a thing, that's what you PREFER because the alternative if you had a display that showed the full resolution would be needing a magnifying glass/lens insert that allowed you to put your eye an inch from the screen to see the full detail. It is way easier for both the doctor and from a supported technological aspect to zoom the image. Zooming via moving your eyes closer requires that your eyes be able to focus an inch from the screen, and if they can't (which is true is basically everyone over 50 except those who are severely nearsighted and wear glasses they can remove) they'd need to put on some sort of magnifying glasses to allow that close up view.

That's not just true of doctors, if you're doing CAD work you don't need to see the tiniest detail when you are zoomed out for the view of an entire object or building. People don't work that way, not because they wish they had a 64K resolution display, but because it is far more convenient to not have to lean forward and practically touch your eye to the screen to see the finest details.

Not saying we don't need more powerful GPUs - i.e. you want that zooming to happen smoothly and quickly without any lag that gets in the way of the workflow. But you don't need ever higher resolutions. I think 4K will remain the stopping point for mainstream displays - 8K TV streaming is never going to become a thing. Content creators will need a bit higher resolution so 8K will do for them. Anything higher will be a tiny tiny niche market with very limited applications.

dullard · Aug 29, 2024

Doug S said:
Why do you need to display the entire image on the monitor, zooming into a larger image is a thing. That's already the case for medical image viewing, stuff like PET/CT combined whole body scans produce much higher resolutions than any monitor will ever be able to display, but there's no need to display the entire image at maximum resolution. Much easier to select a portion that's of interest and zoom in, having a sliding window if you want to follow along features that are larger than your window (like maybe if you want to check out a blood vessel path or long bone)

Not only is zooming a thing, that's what you PREFER because the alternative if you had a display that showed the full resolution would be needing a magnifying glass/lens insert that allowed you to put your eye an inch from the screen to see the full detail. It is way easier for both the doctor and from a supported technological aspect to zoom the image. Zooming via moving your eyes closer requires that your eyes be able to focus an inch from the screen, and if they can't (which is true is basically everyone over 50 except those who are severely nearsighted and wear glasses they can remove) they'd need to put on some sort of magnifying glasses to allow that close up view.

That's not just true of doctors, if you're doing CAD work you don't need to see the tiniest detail when you are zoomed out for the view of an entire object or building. People don't work that way, not because they wish they had a 64K resolution display, but because it is far more convenient to not have to lean forward and practically touch your eye to the screen to see the finest details.

Not saying we don't need more powerful GPUs - i.e. you want that zooming to happen smoothly and quickly without any lag that gets in the way of the workflow. But you don't need ever higher resolutions. I think 4K will remain the stopping point for mainstream displays - 8K TV streaming is never going to become a thing. Content creators will need a bit higher resolution so 8K will do for them. Anything higher will be a tiny tiny niche market with very limited applications.

I'll just say it is obvious that you aren't in those lines of business then. You absolutely do not need to lean in or use a magnifying glass to see fine details on static images from several feet away. Image downscaling is a significant problem and can be seen even if you think your eye can't see a single pixel--whole lines missing matter and are seen. Textures are even worse when downscaling.

I just measured, and I work 33" away and can see these problems without leaning in. Sure, you can zoom in, but it often is quite useful to see the whole image without artifacts.

Doug S · Aug 29, 2024

dullard said:
I'll just say it is obvious that you aren't in those lines of business then. You absolutely do not need to lean in or use a magnifying glass to see fine details on static images from several feet away. Image downscaling is a significant problem and can be seen even if you think your eye can't see a single pixel--whole lines missing matter and are seen. Textures are even worse when downscaling.

I just measured, and I work 33" away and can see these problems without leaning in. Sure, you can zoom in, but it often is quite useful to see the whole image without artifacts.

You seem to be talking about poorly rendered graphics or stuff that's been compressed, certainly not actual uncompressed 4/4/4 images.

How big is your monitor and what resolution is it if you "see these problems" from 33" away? And what's your vision, 20/20? Better? That's not the case for most people's corrected vision, let alone uncorrected - especially with tired eyes.

dr1337 · Aug 29, 2024

dullard said:
You are thinking video, which is valid.

I disagree with this, though true its gonna be a while until 8k media even exists (IIRC 35mm avg grain density is only something like 5k) there is still a ton of 4k content out there. Being able to have a single window of a 4k video playing at native res while still having room for other things is extremely useful ie, in video editing. Or just general multi-tasking if you ever like to break things out into windows instead of keeping things full screen all the time.

But yes resolution absolutely matters for images and especially text. And I agree that downscaling is always worse, its gotta be a joke that some people think zooming in on a lower res monitor is somehow better or any different than higher res ones.

But maybe some people don't see things as images or renderings, but rather as art. Like how in the 8gb isn't enough thread, some users will endlessly debate about turning graphics settings down as somehow being appropriate for new hardware. Maybe some people only care about artists intentions and not the way their system is actually reproducing the content they consume.

It was actually a killer for me too back in 2020 doing CAD work, I had this newish Ice Lake laptop that wouldn't even support 1440p output... And work had just got a new 4k monitor that I couldn't use lol. 8k support is going to be mandatory within the next 5 years for sure.

Doug S · Aug 29, 2024

dr1337 said:
But yes resolution absolutely matters for images and especially text. And I agree that downscaling is always worse, its gotta be a joke that some people think zooming in on a lower res monitor is somehow better or any different than higher res ones.

I'm talking about content which is at a way higher DPI than a monitor can display. So it is interpolated and downscaled if you view the entire image at once, because there's no way around that if you want to view content which is at a higher resolution for the area you want to display than the monitor is capable of. When you "zoom" you are REDUCING the downscaling, and if you zoom enough you are viewing it at a 1:1 image pixel vs display pixel basis. I'm not talking about going beyond that 1:1 level, to where are you trying to "create" pixels, like how CSI type TV shows would "enhance" blurry CCTV stills that would resolve into a near perfect photo quality image of the criminal's face.

There's no way we're going to get 2000 dpi monitors, it just doesn't make sense even though we can definitely manufacture them. But if you have an image of say a human body that's 2000 dpi you could view a brain (or at least part of that brain) at full resolution on a suitably large monitor. Obviously it wouldn't be 2000 dpi, maybe it is only 200 dpi or whatever, so it would be 10x larger than the brain physically is. Doesn't that make more sense than squinting at the brain with a whole body image shown on a monitor?

dullard · Aug 30, 2024

Doug S said:
You seem to be talking about poorly rendered graphics or stuff that's been compressed, certainly not actual uncompressed 4/4/4 images.

How big is your monitor and what resolution is it if you "see these problems" from 33" away? And what's your vision, 20/20? Better? That's not the case for most people's corrected vision, let alone uncorrected - especially with tired eyes.

Psst: The original topic was 50 MP images (most high end smartphones are about this image size on their main) on 33 MP monitors (8K). These all get compressed if you want to see it all at the same time. Why would we suddenly talk about non-compressed images?

My vision with glasses is pretty close to 20/20 - probably just a bit worse. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Your ideas are based on can you see a single pixel on an 8K monitor from 33" away. That is probably not likely without good vision. But, you absolutely CAN see downscaling issues such as missing lines, textures, large features, anti-aliasing, etc. even on a small high resolution monitor from far away.

While you probably don't have a high-resolution monitor like an 8K monitor, just try looking at these images from different distances. One is full resolution, one is downscaled the same amount that a 50 MP image would have to be downscaled onto an 8K monitor. Go far away. You can still see the differences without needing magnifying glasses or going 1" away. Heck, go to a store and view this on an 8K monitor and you'll likely see the difference of downscaling from 33" away. Otherwise, you urgently need to see an optometrist.

I had to go about 25 FEET away to start to not be able to tell the differences in these two images.

Full resolution:

Downscaled the same amount a 50 MP image would be downscaled to an 8K monitor. This is since even an 8K monitor can't show a full photo from a new phone or DSLR:

dullard · Aug 30, 2024

Doug S said:
You seem to be talking about poorly rendered graphics or stuff that's been compressed, certainly not actual uncompressed 4/4/4 images.

Now try this, pretend it is a body scan looking for abnormalities. How many feet do you need to go back to finally see false spots (pretend they are looking for spots of cancer) on the image on the right? Or, what is the chance after zooming way in and doomscrolling day in and day out that they might miss a spot that could have been seen if only the whole image was shown at the same time?

Or if you don't like that, try to pretend this is a critical portion of work you are doing on Solidworks, and click on just the correct rings. Please click on the 27th and 28th ring for me. Or maybe, pretend these are images from your photography studio (texture problems just like this example show up on fences, hair, textiles, etc). Do you really need to be 1" away to tell the differences?

Both are the exact same image, just the one on the right had to be downsampled the same amount that many photos are downsampled onto a lower resolution monitor.

IEC · Aug 30, 2024

Must be a slow news day. I had to check to see if I had misclicked and ended up in a monitor discussion. Whew, it's still the right thread, just the wrong content!

511 · Aug 30, 2024

Here we go Intel 18A has DD of <0.4 something i found with TSMC N5/N7 data

Intel Corporation (INTC) Deutsche Bank's 2024 Technology Conference

Patrick Gelsinger And as you think about the turnaround story for Intel, I'd really like to say that we've now begun phase two. You know, in phase one of the transformation was this rebuilding of the company and being able to get back to process and product leadership and laying out our IDM 2.0...

semiwiki.com

OriAr · Aug 30, 2024

511 said:
Here we go Intel 18A has DD of <0.4 something i found with TSMC N5/N7 data

Intel Corporation (INTC) Deutsche Bank's 2024 Technology Conference

Patrick Gelsinger And as you think about the turnaround story for Intel, I'd really like to say that we've now begun phase two. You know, in phase one of the transformation was this rebuilding of the company and being able to get back to process and product leadership and laying out our IDM 2.0...

semiwiki.com

So much for the "18A has poor yields" stuff that has been going around recently.
Looks like yields are perfectly on track for HVM mid next year.

SiliconFly · Aug 30, 2024

OriAr said:
So much for the "18A has poor yields" stuff that has been going around recently.
Looks like yields are perfectly on track for HVM mid next year.

Yield is only one factor. There are other bottlenecks they need to address to hit good volume.

OriAr · Aug 30, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Yield is only one factor. There are other bottlenecks they need to address to hit good volume.

There are, but the FUD spreading was about yields specifically.

Philste · Aug 30, 2024

OriAr said:
So much for the "18A has poor yields" stuff that has been going around recently.

Digitimes at it again. They are a Taiwanese Outlet and heavily biased towards TSMC.

Det0x · Aug 30, 2024

Not sure if this have been posted yet

https://twitter.com/x/status/1829150012829511735

Intel Arrow Lake-S Unlocked SKUs To Feature Up To 250W “PL1” Performance Profiles on Core Ultra 9 285K & Core Ultra 7 265K, 159W For Ultra 5 245K

Intel Arrow Lake-S Unlocked SKUs To Feature Up To 250W "PL1" Performance Profiles on Core Ultra 9 285K & Core Ultra 7 265K, 159W For Ultra 5 245K

Intel Arrow Lake-S CPUs feature the same PL1 ratings as PL2 across Core Ultra 9 285K, Ultra 7 265K & Ultra 5 245K in "Performance" profiles.

wccftech.com

Falkentyne · Aug 30, 2024

Intel is in their situation because of BAD leadership the last 20 years.
Use inline Google translate.
Gel made mistakes, sure, but he isn't the primary cause.

Intel‚Í‚Ç‚±‚ÅŠÔˆá‚¦‚½H `2‚Â‚Ìƒ~ƒXƒWƒƒƒbƒW‚Æ•s’²‚Ìª–{Œ´ˆö

Intel‚Ì‹ÆÑ‚ª’á–À‚µ‚Ä‚¢‚éB‹ÆÑˆÈŠO‚Å‚àAlˆõíŒ¸‚âuRaptor Lakev‚ÌƒNƒ‰ƒbƒVƒ…–â‘è‚È‚ÇA‚³‚Ü‚´‚Ü‚È–â‘è‚ª˜I’æ‚µ‚Ä‚¢‚ÄAIntel‚ªŒµ‚µ‚¢ó‹µ‚É’Ç‚¢ž‚Ü‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚é‚±‚Æ‚ª•ª‚©‚éBIntel‚Í‚È‚ºA‚±‚Ì‚æ‚¤‚Èó‹µ‚ÉŠ×‚Á‚Ä‚¢‚é‚Ì‚©B‚»‚±‚É‚Í2‚Â‚Ìƒ~ƒXƒWƒƒƒbƒW‚ÆA‚»‚à‚»‚àª–{“I‚ÈŒ´ˆö‚ª‚ ‚é‚Æ•MŽÒ‚Í‚Ý‚Ä‚¢‚éB

eetimes.itmedia.co.jp

SiliconFly · Aug 30, 2024

Falkentyne said:
Intel is in their situation because of BAD leadership the last 20 years.
Use inline Google translate.
Gel made mistakes, sure, but he isn't the primary cause.

Intel‚Í‚Ç‚±‚ÅŠÔˆá‚¦‚½H `2‚Â‚Ìƒ~ƒXƒWƒƒƒbƒW‚Æ•s’²‚Ìª–{Œ´ˆö

Intel‚Ì‹ÆÑ‚ª’á–À‚µ‚Ä‚¢‚éB‹ÆÑˆÈŠO‚Å‚àAlˆõíŒ¸‚âuRaptor Lakev‚ÌƒNƒ‰ƒbƒVƒ…–â‘è‚È‚ÇA‚³‚Ü‚´‚Ü‚È–â‘è‚ª˜I’æ‚µ‚Ä‚¢‚ÄAIntel‚ªŒµ‚µ‚¢ó‹µ‚É’Ç‚¢ž‚Ü‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚é‚±‚Æ‚ª•ª‚©‚éBIntel‚Í‚È‚ºA‚±‚Ì‚æ‚¤‚Èó‹µ‚ÉŠ×‚Á‚Ä‚¢‚é‚Ì‚©B‚»‚±‚É‚Í2‚Â‚Ìƒ~ƒXƒWƒƒƒbƒW‚ÆA‚»‚à‚»‚àª–{“I‚ÈŒ´ˆö‚ª‚ ‚é‚Æ•MŽÒ‚Í‚Ý‚Ä‚¢‚éB

eetimes.itmedia.co.jp

Pat Gelsinger is definitely not the cause. He took over a company that was already ruined by the two biggest idiots in history: Brian Krzanich & Bob Swan.

The first one, Brian Krzanich, was responsible for all the 14+++++ debacle.

The second one, Bob Swan, was responsible for all the 10++++ mess.

Both these idiots made sure Intel will never be the real Intel again. And thats a fact. I can't envision a scenario where Intel will be the same old power house it used to be. It's adapting, changing, trying to shed baggage. Hopefully, it may evolve into something better in the future.

DavidC1 · Aug 30, 2024

SiliconFly said:
The second one, Bob Swan, was responsible for all the 10++++ mess.

Actually most people credit Bob Swan as being the man responsible for stabilizing the company while the BoD was looking for a real leader. Quickly after Swan became CEO, the stuck pipeline started flowing.

Problem is, too much damage had been done since then. They have all the problems they had in the past with Pentium III/Netburst transition while adding others on top, each of which are substantial: AMD being a force to be reckoned with + losing fab superiority.

Neither I think gives hope for recovery fab split or not. Things are just too omnious. The spirit of Intel, the company that gave us integrated circuits and microprocessors won't die. It will continue in way different formats.

jdubs03 · Aug 30, 2024

I know many here aren’t fans here of MILD, but he has commented on the Royal Core cancellation theme. If what he’s saying in the video is legit, it sounded pretty cool:
Dynamic splitting of threads per core. 2x IPC of RPL. Says this was from a face-to-face meeting with a verified Intel employee aware of the project.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Intel Arrow Lake-S Unlocked SKUs To Feature Up To 250W “PL1” Performance Profiles on Core Ultra 9 285K & Core Ultra 7 265K, 159W For Ultra 5 245K​

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Intel Arrow Lake-S Unlocked SKUs To Feature Up To 250W “PL1” Performance Profiles on Core Ultra 9 285K & Core Ultra 7 265K, 159W For Ultra 5 245K