Discussion RDNA4 + CDNA3 Architectures Thread

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DisEnchantment

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2017
1,747
6,598
136





With the GFX940 patches in full swing since first week of March, it is looking like MI300 is not far in the distant future!
Usually AMD takes around 3Qs to get the support in LLVM and amdgpu. Lately, since RDNA2 the window they push to add support for new devices is much reduced to prevent leaks.
But looking at the flurry of code in LLVM, it is a lot of commits. Maybe because US Govt is starting to prepare the SW environment for El Capitan (Maybe to avoid slow bring up situation like Frontier for example)

See here for the GFX940 specific commits
Or Phoronix

There is a lot more if you know whom to follow in LLVM review chains (before getting merged to github), but I am not going to link AMD employees.

I am starting to think MI300 will launch around the same time like Hopper probably only a couple of months later!
Although I believe Hopper had problems not having a host CPU capable of doing PCIe 5 in the very near future therefore it might have gotten pushed back a bit until SPR and Genoa arrives later in 2022.
If PVC slips again I believe MI300 could launch before it

This is nuts, MI100/200/300 cadence is impressive.



Previous thread on CDNA2 and RDNA3 here

 
Last edited:

Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
695
601
106
RDNA4 N48 is a mid range GPU

After RDNA3 and Zen5's wrecked hype trains, people should be more cautious about RDNA4's leaked specs and hypes especially with AMD almost non-existence dual issue designs. Let me show you with the table below:


780M890M7800 XTN48OC of N48 ?7900 GRE7900 XT7900MRTX 4070 SuperRTX4070 Ti SuperRTX 4080Mobile RTX 4090
GPURDNA3RDNA3+N32RDNA4N31N31N31AD104AD103AD103AD103
CU/SM1216606480847256667676
RT12166064 ?80847256667676
Speed2800 MHz2900 MHz2430 MHz2900 ?3200 ?2245 MHz2394 MHz2090 MHz2475 MHz2610 MHz2505 MHz1695 MHz
IF Cache64 MB64 MB64 MB80 MB64 MB48 MB48 MB64 MB64 MB
Memory128-bit LPDDR5x-7500128-bit LPDDR5x-7500256-bit GDDR6 19.5 Gbps256-bit GDDR6 20 Gbps256-bit GDDR6 24 Gbps256-bit GDDR6 18 Gbps320-bit GDDR6 20 Gbps256-bit GDDR6 18 Gbps192-bit GDDR6X 21 Gbps256-bit GDDR6X 21 Gbps256-bit GDDR6X 22.4 Gbps256-bit GDDR6 18 Gbps
Memory BW120 GB/s120 GB/s624 GB/s640 GB/s768 GB/s576 GB/s800 GB/s576 GB/s504 GB/s672.3 GB/s716.8 GB/s576 GB/s
+%Base+ 3%+ 23%- 8%+ 28%- 8%
FP32 (SI)4.3 TF5.94 TF18.7 TF23.8 TF26.2 TF23 TF25.7 TF
FP32 (DI)37.4 TF47.6 TF52.4 TF46 TF51.4 TF38.52 TF35.48 TF44.1 TF48.74 TF32.98 TF
+%+ 38%Base
TPU RasterBase??+ 10%+ 30%- 9%+ 8%+ 27%+ 47%+ 0%
Aztec Ruins High Tier 4K34.639.7
+%+ 15%

  • 890M's graphics performance is severely constrained by memory bandwidth. Even though 890M has increased FP32 by 38%, we only seen about 15% faster in average gaming fps.
  • Based on leaks, I have calculated FP32 of N48 with memory bandwidth. If 2.9GHz is the top speed of N48, the FP32 of N48 has bumped 27% compared to 7800XT even though they are having similar memory bandwidth. Based on specs and performance of 7900GRE, it seems the GPU is not memory constrained with 46 TF (DI). Theoretically, with 47.6 TF, we should be expecting N48 to perform slightly faster than 7900GRE, i.e.. around 10% faster than 7800XT.
  • The calculated figure is far lower than leaks suggested which is faster than 7900XT, that's mean around 30% faster rasterization than 7800XT. Not to mentioned faster than RTX4070Ti Super....Why?
  • Cause AMD marketing team is using DI to calculate FP32 and compared to RTX4070Ti Super, 47.6TF sure sound faster than 44.1TF of RTX4070Ti S and even approaching the 48.74TF of RTX4080. However, FP32 of RDNA and RTX4000 is not comparable.... Even though 7900XT is having 51.4 TF, the rasterization performance is slower than RTX4080, that's why NV is able to charge $1199 for RTX4080...
  • NO, N48 is not replacing N31, AMD will keep selling 7900XT/XTX. What AMD could be replacing are 7700XT 12GB, 7800XT 16GB and 7900GRE 16GB, in which current leaks suggested there are 3 models planned: N48 12GB, N48 16GB 18Gbps and N48 16GB 20Gbps.
  • Mobile RDNA4 might be another reason why AMD make it. Fire Range with 16 Zen5 cores should be launching by the end of Q3 which aligns with RDNA4 launching. If AMD manages to launch mobile N48 with 16GB 256-bit memory bus, AMD could finally challenge NV's mobile RTX4090...
 
Last edited:

Arctic Islands

Junior Member
Apr 28, 2024
3
0
11
AMD has managed to dramatically shrink the L3 on Zen5 vs Zen4, I expect similar efforts for the MALL in RDNA4. N5 -> N4P is also a small shrink.
I've calculated the L3 size on Zen 5 by strix point's die shot. It's about 9.8mm^2 per 16MB slice. It is smaller than a 8x2MB slice on MCDs, which is about 15.6mm^2.
But still, SEs in N48 have to be much smaller than N31s' such that everything include I/O, codec, memory PHY and more can fit in such a small area, which I don't think it's true.
 

Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
695
601
106
I've calculated the L3 size on Zen 5 by strix point's die shot. It's about 9.8mm^2 per 16MB slice. It is smaller than a 8x2MB slice on MCDs, which is about 15.6mm^2.
But still, SEs in N48 have to be much smaller than N31s' such that everything include I/O, codec, memory PHY and more can fit in such a small area, which I don't think it's true.
240 mm2 die size is older info. MLID mentioned that the die area of N48 could range from 300 - 350 mm2 which is more believable with 64MB IC.
 

marees

Senior member
Apr 28, 2024
396
455
96
If 2.9GHz speed is the top speed of N48
Why would you assume that ?

Even chiplet RDNA 3 can boost to 3.75ghz (subject to power constraints of data transfer)

More immediate constraints are:
  1. 7900 gre was constrained by memory speed
  2. MLID leaked that power target for top RDNA 4 is same as 7700xt (+ 10% overclock power limits)
  3. Assume a modest IPC boost
Putting all together I expect (as claimed by MLID)
  1. Top n48 to launch this year (leaked)
  2. 7700xt power consumption (leaked)
  3. 7900xt raster give or take few %
  4. 4070 ti super RT (win or lose depending on game)
  5. 4070 super price (my inference)
  6. 7900xt would sell for $650 since it has more VRAM & supports ROCM
  7. Other RDNA 4 cards to launch strictly only after 7800xt & 7700xt are sold out
Price/performance
  1. $600 = 4070 ti super
  2. $500 = 4070 super
  3. $400 = 4070 gddr6
  4. $300 = 4060 ti
 

marees

Senior member
Apr 28, 2024
396
455
96
Now they just need to release it and all will be well. Planning to get a top tier RDNA4 at launch if raster is really at 7900XT levels.

Price/performance
  1. $600 = 4070 ti super
  2. $500 = 4070 super
  3. $400 = 4070 gddr6
  4. $300 = 4060 ti

Thinking back to RDNA 1 launch we would seem to have a cumulative inflation of approx 50% (8.5% annualized inflation)

  1. 5700xt = $400
  2. 5700 = $350
  3. 5600xt = $280
  4. 5500 = $200
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
9,290
3,435
136
www.teamjuchems.com
Thinking back to RDNA 1 launch we would seem to have a cumulative inflation of approx 50% (8.5% annualized inflation)

  1. 5700xt = $400
  2. 5700 = $350
  3. 5600xt = $280
  4. 5500 = $200

I am going to say that AMD/Nvidia previously underestimated how much money we'd all spend on toys and COVID+Ethereum showed them differently on top of the nice little tradewar tariff and then we added a big old cherry of inflation to the top and that's how we went from the 5700XT (which I got for $340, naturally) to the whatever it is at $600 in the same "tier".

It was a confluence of factors and some of us played our part by purchasing right through the high prices and scarcity.
 

Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
695
601
106
RDNA4 N48 is a mid range GPU
Right after I posted above message's title, Golden Pig Upgrade has posted the message below:


Don't expect flagship-level performance…… If you guys don't get my calculation, well at least you should understand what Golden Pig Upgrade implied: RDNA4 is not flagship-level GPU, period. That's mean AMD will keep selling 7900XT/XTX as flagship GPU. Here comes an interesting question, how would AMD name the RDNA4 lineup if AMD still selling RX7900XT and XTX? The media and most of the forum members have jumped the gun and predicted RDNA4 would be called RX8000 series based on leaked performance. However, if the leaks are wrong about performance figure, then what would/should AMD name the RDNA4 lineup? I am inclined to believe AMD would name RDNA4 lineup to be RX7000 series like 7850XT. Of course, naming could change at the last minute, let's wait for official announcement……

Current LineupCUTotal Die SizeQ4 2024 - 2025CUTotal Die Size
7900 XTX 24GB96529 mm2
7900 XT 20GB84529 mm2
7900GRE 16GB80529 mm2N48 16GB64300 - 350 mm2
7800 XT 16GB60346 mm2N48 16GB56 ?300 - 350 mm2
7700 XT 12GB54346 mm2N48 12GB?300 - 350 mm2
7600XT 16GB32204 mm2N44 16GB32?
 
Reactions: marees

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,879
4,951
136
Don't expect flagship-level performance…… If you guys don't get my calculation, well at least you should understand what Golden Pig Upgrade implied: RDNA4 is not flagship-level GPU, period. That's mean AMD will keep selling 7900XT/XTX as flagship GPU.
The problem with this reasoning is that for the next gen, the 7900XT will not be flagship level. RTX 5070 maybe?
 

marees

Senior member
Apr 28, 2024
396
455
96
what would/should AMD name the RDNA4 lineup? I am inclined to believe AMD would name RDNA4 lineup to be RX7000 series like 7850XT. Of course, naming could change at the last minute, let's wait for official announcement……

Current LineupCUTotal Die SizeQ4 2024 - 2025CUTotal Die Size
7900 XTX 24GB96529 mm2
7900 XT 20GB84529 mm2
7900GRE 16GB80529 mm2N48 16GB64300 - 350 mm2
7800 XT 16GB60346 mm2N48 16GB56 ?300 - 350 mm2
7700 XT 12GB54346 mm2N48 12GB?300 - 350 mm2
7600XT 16GB32204 mm2N44 16GB32?
Below names are available

7900
7850xt
7800
7750xt
7700
7650xt
 

linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,399
976
136
I am inclined to believe AMD would name RDNA4 lineup to be RX7000 series like 7850XT. Of course, naming could change at the last minute, let's wait for official announcement……
Not a chance, AIB partners won't allow it, and marketing wise nobody will buy it. It's better to rebrand the 7900xtx than keep RDNA4 with the previous gen naming. I'm not sure if this ever happened with a completely new GPU family. It'll make it much more difficult to find reviews, it'll make it harder for consumers to understand what they're buying.

Even Polaris was essentially rebranded twice.

AMD need a fresh start, they don't need to release RDNA4 with RDNA3's shadow weighing on it. They also don't need the latest 7900 card lineup ruining the already broken naming tiers by competing with Nvidia's 5060 or 5060ti cards if they're planning on a RDNA5 comeback.
 

marees

Senior member
Apr 28, 2024
396
455
96
Not a chance, AIB partners won't allow it, and marketing wise nobody will buy it. It's better to rebrand the 7900xtx than keep RDNA4 with the previous gen naming. I'm not sure if this ever happened with a completely new GPU family. It'll make it much more difficult to find reviews, it'll make it harder for consumers to understand what they're buying.

Even Polaris was essentially rebranded twice.

AMD need a fresh start, they don't need to release RDNA4 with RDNA3's shadow weighing on it. They also don't need the latest 7900 card lineup ruining the already broken naming tiers by competing with Nvidia's 5060 or 5060ti cards if they're planning on a RDNA5 comeback.
8700xt
8700
8600xt
8500xt
Would be identical to rdna 1

But I think AMD will use XTX for top card, so it could be the below:
8700xtx
8700xt
8600xt
8500xt

Maybe they could rebrand 7900xt/7900xtx as 8800xt/8800xtx
 

marees

Senior member
Apr 28, 2024
396
455
96
Thought RDNA1 was just a single chip?
you don't remember the below 😉

AMD Radeon RX Series Specification Comparison​
AMD Radeon RX 5500 XT​
AMD Radeon RX 5700​
AMD Radeon RX 570​
AMD Radeon RX 560​
CUs
22
(1408 SPs)​
36
(2304 SPs)​
32
(2048 SPs)​
16
(1024 SPs)​
Texture Units
88​
144​
128​
64​
ROPs
32​
64​
32​
16​
Base Clock
1607MHz​
1465MHz​
1168MHz​
1175MHz​
Game Clock
1717MHz​
1625MHz​
N/A​
N/A​
Boost Clock
1845MHz​
1725MHz​
1244MHz​
1275MHz​
Throughput (FP32)
5.2 TFLOPs​
7.95 TFLOPs​
5.1 TFLOPs​
2.6 TFLOPs​
Memory Clock
14 Gbps GDDR6​
14 Gbps GDDR6​
7Gbps GDDR5​
7 Gbps GDDR5​
Memory Bus Width
128-bit​
256-bit​
256-bit​
128-bit​
VRAM
4GB/8GB​
8GB​
4GB​
4GB​
Transistor Count
6.4B​
10.3B​
5.7B​
3B​
Typical Board Power
130W​
180W​
150W​
80W​
Manufacturing Process
TSMC 7nm​
TSMC 7nm​
GloFo 14nm​
GloFo 14nm​
Architecture
RDNA (1)​
RDNA (1)​
GCN 4​
GCN 4​
GPU
Navi 14​
Navi 10​
Polaris 10​
Polaris 11​
Launch Date
12/12/2019​
07/07/2019​
04/18/2017​
05/2017​
Launch Price
$199/$169​
$349​
$169​
$99​

 
Reactions: soresu

marees

Senior member
Apr 28, 2024
396
455
96
you don't remember the below 😉

AMD Radeon RX Series Specification Comparison​
AMD Radeon RX 5500 XT​
AMD Radeon RX 5700​
AMD Radeon RX 570​
AMD Radeon RX 560​
CUs
22
(1408 SPs)​
36
(2304 SPs)​
32
(2048 SPs)​
16
(1024 SPs)​
Texture Units
88​
144​
128​
64​
ROPs
32​
64​
32​
16​
Base Clock
1607MHz​
1465MHz​
1168MHz​
1175MHz​
Game Clock
1717MHz​
1625MHz​
N/A​
N/A​
Boost Clock
1845MHz​
1725MHz​
1244MHz​
1275MHz​
Throughput (FP32)
5.2 TFLOPs​
7.95 TFLOPs​
5.1 TFLOPs​
2.6 TFLOPs​
Memory Clock
14 Gbps GDDR6​
14 Gbps GDDR6​
7Gbps GDDR5​
7 Gbps GDDR5​
Memory Bus Width
128-bit​
256-bit​
256-bit​
128-bit​
VRAM
4GB/8GB​
8GB​
4GB​
4GB​
Transistor Count
6.4B​
10.3B​
5.7B​
3B​
Typical Board Power
130W​
180W​
150W​
80W​
Manufacturing Process
TSMC 7nm​
TSMC 7nm​
GloFo 14nm​
GloFo 14nm​
Architecture
RDNA (1)​
RDNA (1)​
GCN 4​
GCN 4​
GPU
Navi 14​
Navi 10​
Polaris 10​
Polaris 11​
Launch Date
12/12/2019​
07/07/2019​
04/18/2017​
05/2017​
Launch Price
$199/$169​
$349​
$169​
$99​


Or this one


AMD Radeon RX Series Specification Comparison​
AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT​
AMD Radeon RX 5700​
AMD Radeon RX 590​
AMD Radeon RX 570​
Stream Processors
2560
(40 CUs)​
2304
(36 CUs)​
2304
(36 CUs)​
2048
(32 CUs)​
Texture Units
160​
144​
144​
128​
ROPs
64​
64​
32​
32​
Base Clock
1605MHz​
1465MHz​
1469MHz​
1168MHz​
Game Clock
1755MHz​
1625MHz​
N/A​
N/A​
Boost Clock
1905MHz​
1725MHz​
1545MHz​
1244MHz​
Throughput (FP32)
9.75 TFLOPs​
7.9 TFLOPs​
7.1 TFLOPs​
5.1 TFLOPs​
Memory Clock
14 Gbps GDDR6​
14 Gbps GDDR6​
8 Gbps GDDR5​
7 Gbps GDDR5​
Memory Bus Width
256-bit​
256-bit​
256-bit​
256-bit​
VRAM
8GB​
8GB​
8GB​
4GB​
Transistor Count
10.3B​
10.3B​
5.7B​
5.7B​
Typical Board Power
225W​
180W​
225W​
150W​
Manufacturing Process
TSMC 7nm​
TSMC 7nm​
GloFo/Samsung 12nm​
GloFo 14nm​
Architecture
RDNA (1)​
RDNA (1)​
GCN 4​
GCN 4​
GPU
Navi 10​
Navi 10​
Polaris 30​
Polaris 10​
Launch Date
07/07/2019​
07/07/2019​
11/15/2018​
08/04/2016​
Launch Price
$449

$399
$379

$349

$279​

$179​

 

marees

Senior member
Apr 28, 2024
396
455
96
Or this one


AMD Radeon RX Series Specification Comparison​
AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT​
AMD Radeon RX 5700​
AMD Radeon RX 590​
AMD Radeon RX 570​
Stream Processors
2560
(40 CUs)​
2304
(36 CUs)​
2304
(36 CUs)​
2048
(32 CUs)​
Texture Units
160​
144​
144​
128​
ROPs
64​
64​
32​
32​
Base Clock
1605MHz​
1465MHz​
1469MHz​
1168MHz​
Game Clock
1755MHz​
1625MHz​
N/A​
N/A​
Boost Clock
1905MHz​
1725MHz​
1545MHz​
1244MHz​
Throughput (FP32)
9.75 TFLOPs​
7.9 TFLOPs​
7.1 TFLOPs​
5.1 TFLOPs​
Memory Clock
14 Gbps GDDR6​
14 Gbps GDDR6​
8 Gbps GDDR5​
7 Gbps GDDR5​
Memory Bus Width
256-bit​
256-bit​
256-bit​
256-bit​
VRAM
8GB​
8GB​
8GB​
4GB​
Transistor Count
10.3B​
10.3B​
5.7B​
5.7B​
Typical Board Power
225W​
180W​
225W​
150W​
Manufacturing Process
TSMC 7nm​
TSMC 7nm​
GloFo/Samsung 12nm​
GloFo 14nm​
Architecture
RDNA (1)​
RDNA (1)​
GCN 4​
GCN 4​
GPU
Navi 10​
Navi 10​
Polaris 30​
Polaris 10​
Launch Date
07/07/2019​
07/07/2019​
11/15/2018​
08/04/2016​
Launch Price
$449

$399
$379

$349

$279​

$179​



And this one



AMD Radeon RX Series Specification Comparison​
AMD Radeon RX 5600 XT​
AMD Radeon RX 5700​
AMD Radeon RX 5500 XT​
AMD Radeon RX 590​
CUs
36
(2304 SPs)​
36
(2304 SPs)​
22
(1408 SPs)​
36
(2304 SPs)​
Texture Units
144​
144​
88​
144​
ROPs
64​
64​
32​
32​
Base Clock
1247MHz?​
1465MHz​
1607MHz​
1469MHz​
Game Clock
1375MHz​
1625MHz​
1717MHz​
N/A​
Boost Clock
1560MHz​
1725MHz​
1845MHz​
1545MHz​
Throughput (FP32)
7.2 TFLOPs​
7.95 TFLOPs​
5.2 TFLOPs​
7.1 TFLOPs​
Memory Clock
12 Gbps GDDR6​
14 Gbps GDDR6​
14 Gbps GDDR6​
8 Gbps GDDR5​
Memory Bus Width
192-bit​
256-bit​
128-bit​
256-bit​
VRAM
6GB​
8GB​
4GB/8GB​
8GB​
Transistor Count
10.3B​
10.3B​
6.4B​
5.7B​
Typical Board Power
150W​
180W​
130W​
225W​
Manufacturing Process
TSMC 7nm​
TSMC 7nm​
TSMC 7nm​
GloFo/Samsung 12nm​
Architecture
RDNA (1)​
RDNA (1)​
RDNA (1)​
GCN 4​
GPU
Navi 10​
Navi 10​
Navi 14​
Polaris 30​
Launch Date
01/21/2020​
07/07/2019​
12/12/2019​
11/15/2018​
Launch Price
$279​
$349​
$199/$169​
$279​


 

linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,399
976
136
Thought RDNA1 was just a single chip?
RDNA1 had 5700XT et al. (Navi 10) and 5500XT et al. (Navi 14)

To be fair it also had at least one shrink of its high end chip, in no small part due to the fact that Vega's market coverage was sketchy at best.
You're just making my point stronger. Even a relatively minor 12nm "shrink" got a new lineup (RX 580 was maybe 10% faster than RX 480). They could have easily done 485 instead. Grenada which was essentially Hawaii also got the R9 390 rebrand.
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
3,206
2,474
136
Hopefully with N31 being such a conservative CU increase we will see at least 1.33-1.5x more CUs on the RDNA5 hi end, possibly higher still for the enthusiast SKU if chiplets makes a super hi CU count possible without exploding overheads.
 
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