Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Philste · Sep 1, 2024

jdubs03 said:
Ah yes my bad. Seems like that’s a focus on ST and battery life. MT isn’t getting much of a bump there.

Focus is more on building a CPU that actually is suitable for 500-800$ devices and still makes money. Lunar Lake is basically "we've thrown it all in to let the world see we are not dead". But they can't sell RPL in these lowend devices forever.

Magio · Sep 1, 2024

511 said:
It is gonna be cheaper than LNL while performing slightly better I don't see it as a bust

Lower GPU performance and no on package memory for efficiency and a return to PL2s that have no place on a thin and light chip makes it a super disappointing "upgrade" from LNL IMO.

It might perform measurably better in certain ways, if PTC/Darkmont are decent upgrades and 18A delivers, but that just makes it all the more disappointing we're not getting a PTL-V which leverages those improvements but keeps the great stuff from LNL and has enough GPU cores to let Celestial stretch its legs.

Philste · Sep 1, 2024

Magio said:
return to PL2s that have no place on a thin and light chip makes it a super disappointing "upgrade" from LNL IMO.

These PL2s are really weird. PTL-U looks bad, PTL-P/H looks amazing with 64W upper limit for 16 cores and a 1536 ALU iGPU.

ondma · Sep 1, 2024

jdubs03 said:
That’s one reason why if this is all true, it’s such a disappointment. On the order of 10+ years of work has been spent on this concept. To me I cannot believe that Gelsinger would be so short-sighted and waste all that effort. Particularly since the concept was in such an advanced stage. If they’re not integrating this tech into Nova Lake and its successors, then tbh they deserve to lose further market share to AMD.

It is even more disappointing because Intel desperately need a new P core. They seem to be stuck to 15% or so improvements per generation, and they are still big and power hungry. Even then, 15% would not be bad if they could maintain or increase clock speed, but ARL will have a clock speed drop that cuts into the IPC gain. (And no, I dont believe the posters on here who still stubbornly insist desktop LC is going to somehow have a 20%+ IPC increase. I hope I am wrong, but the more leaks that come out, the more it looks like a marginal improvement in both final 1T and nT performance.)

511 · Sep 1, 2024

Magio said:
Lower GPU performance and no on package memory for efficiency and a return to PL2s that have no place on a thin and light chip makes it a super disappointing "upgrade" from LNL IMO.

4 Xe3 Celestial iGPU vs 8 Xe2 battlemage GPU i think it is going to match or will be slightly behind LNL iGPU kind of same with 11thgen/12th gen 96EU graphics vs 4 Xe-LPG (64EU)

Magio said:
It might perform measurably better in certain ways, if PTC/Darkmont are decent upgrades and 18A delivers, but that just makes it all the more disappointing we're not getting a PTL-V which leverages those improvements but keeps the great stuff from LNL and has enough GPU cores to let Celestial stretch its legs.

Yeah I agree they just need to have stringent rules for Design

Philste · Sep 1, 2024

511 said:
4 Xe3 Celestial iGPU vs 8 Xe2 battlemage GPU i think it is going to match or will be slightly behind LNL iGPU

Hm I don't think so. That would mean Intel would do another big jump in their graphics arch within one year. Don't forget PTL taped out already, so Celestial IP is already completely done. RDNA3 was barely 20% higher "IPC" than RDNA2 and Ada is basically Ampere from a pure Architecture standpoint, just way more resources on a far better node. I don't think Intel can reach 8 Xe² Cores with 4 Xe³ Cores. At least as long as the clocks stay roughly in the 2 GHz region.

SiliconFly · Sep 1, 2024

Philste said:
Hm I don't think so. That would mean Intel would do another big jump in their graphics arch within one year. Don't forget PTL taped out already, so Celestial IP is already completely done. RDNA3 was barely 20% higher "IPC" than RDNA2 and Ada is basically Ampere from a pure Architecture standpoint, just way more resources on a far better node. I don't think Intel can reach 8 Xe² Cores with 4 Xe³ Cores. At least as long as the clocks stay roughly in the 2 GHz region.

I don't follow GPUs much, but I remember reading the no of EUs in a Alchemist Xe core is different from the no of EUs in a Battlemage Xe core. It's like 1:2 or 2:1 or something. Likewise, Celestial can be different from Battlemage. If true, Intel can reach the performance of 8 Xe² Cores with just 4 Xe³ Cores plus a little extra due to a generation leap. Just speculating.

SiliconFly · Sep 1, 2024

Magio said:
Lower GPU performance and no on package memory for efficiency and a return to PL2s that have no place on a thin and light chip makes it a super disappointing "upgrade" from LNL IMO.

It might perform measurably better in certain ways, if PTC/Darkmont are decent upgrades and 18A delivers, but that just makes it all the more disappointing we're not getting a PTL-V which leverages those improvements but keeps the great stuff from LNL and has enough GPU cores to let Celestial stretch its legs.

Imho, 18A will deliver on performance for sure. But I don't think it's gonna deliver when it comes volume due to capacity constraints (at least in 2025).

Also, isn't PTL-U 4P+4LPE a good enough replacement for LNL? It appears it can comfortably replace LNL given its power envelope.

Magio · Sep 1, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Imho, 18A will deliver on performance for sure. But I don't think it's gonna deliver when it comes volume due to capacity constraints (at least in 2025).

Also, isn't PTL-U 4P+4LPE a good enough replacement for LNL? It appears it can comfortably replace LNL given its power envelope.

In pure CPU performance (ST and MT) it will most likely be an improvement over LNL but it just does not seem as cutting edge a chip overall and doesn't have the same razor sharp focus on efficiency. I also really don't believe 4 Xe³ will match 8 Xe², that can happen

For PTL-U's limited appeal I always go back to Dell's leaked roadmap: The XPS 16 and 14 will get PTL-H/P refreshes in late 2025/early 2026, but the XPS 13 refresh is only slated to get LNL and Oryon V2 variants. Of course plans can change, but Dell knew enough about PTL to know they'd ship the H and P variants and yet they weren't planning a PTL-U SKU in their flagship line.

DavidC1 · Sep 1, 2024

SiliconFly said:
I don't follow GPUs much, but I remember reading the no of EUs in a Alchemist Xe core is different from the no of EUs in a Battlemage Xe core. It's like 1:2 or 2:1 or something. Likewise, Celestial can be different from Battlemage. If true, Intel can reach the performance of 8 Xe² Cores with just 4 Xe³ Cores plus a little extra due to a generation leap. Just speculating.

You got that wrong. Xe core is the basis to use because you can have less EUs but same Xe cores.

32 Xe = 512EUs
32 Xe2 = 256EUs

Xe cores are comparable to Xe2 cores with the same FLOP rating. EUs are not comparable.

So no, you can't have Xe3 outperforming Xe2 by using the same metric. The improvements will have to come elsewhere.

Magio said:
Of course plans can change, but Dell knew enough about PTL to know they'd ship the H and P variants and yet they weren't planning a PTL-U SKU in their flagship line.

Exactly. Very skeptical on PTL-U until otherwise. It increases tile counts, the PL2 TDP is ridiculous, on-package memory is an afterthought rather than being optimized like in Lunarlake.

Intel views Lunarlake as enough to kill current WoA wave, so they can go right back to coasting.

ondma said:
It is even more disappointing because Intel desperately need a new P core. They seem to be stuck to 15% or so improvements per generation, and they are still big and power hungry.

Actually 15% every 2 years. How will the P cores in Pantherlake get 10% improvement is beyond me.

Thunder 57 said:
What personal attack? I was just stating the facts. There is no way you can know more about why Pat canceled any project then he does himself. Your answer is just that he is a "dmiwit". OK. maybe, maybe not.

Thumbs up. Sometimes people need to be told that they are flat out wrong. Otherwise it's just censorship.

Scientific and other progress RELIES on disagreements, no matter how outlandish it may sound to others to come to the truth, the right conclusion. Having a society filled with snowflakes is contrary to that goal.

SiliconFly · Sep 1, 2024

An important note:

The final AT post says new forum registrations are closed. So, no more new members. :'(

And the most worrying point is it says it's paid up for 3 more months. After that they may abruptly pull the plug.

We have to start looking for equally good or better alternatives. There isn't much time.

Thunder 57 · Sep 1, 2024

SiliconFly said:
An important note:

The final AT post says new forum registrations are closed. So, no more new members. :'(

And the most worrying point is it says it's paid up for 3 more months. After that they may abruptly pull the plug.

We have to start looking for equally good or better alternatives. There isn't much time.

I read that as for the main site. It looks like you can still register in the forums. Also I think Dr. Cutress said it was paid through April, but I may be wrong. Either way, we should be planning for a future without AT forums. The question is when.

jdubs03 · Sep 1, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
I read that as for the main site. It looks like you can still register in the forums. Also I think Dr. Cutress said it was paid through April, but I may be wrong. Either way, we should be planning for a future without AT forums. The question is when.

Should we all move en masse to the desired promise land? Who has the best forums? Techpowerup?

poke01 · Sep 1, 2024

I will be moving to techpowerup if AT forums close

Markfw · Sep 1, 2024

poke01 said:
I will be moving to techpowerup if AT forums close

I know this is sort of off-topic, but does techpowerup have forums that remotely resemble these in functionality and people ?

DavidC1 · Sep 1, 2024

Markfw said:
I know this is sort of off-topic, but does techpowerup have forums that remotely resemble these in functionality and people ?

Simply put, no.

Markfw · Sep 1, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Simply put, no.

Yea I registered and posted one reply. Then I got an email that I had posted, and the reply was nice, but I get the feeling there is a real lack of knowledge there. I tried it because poke01 said he was going there when these close, but damn, no comparison.

Thunder 57 · Sep 1, 2024

Markfw said:
Yea I registered and posted one reply. Then I got an email that I had posted, and the reply was nice, but I get the feeling there is a real lack of knowledge there. I tried it because poke01 said he was going there when these close, but damn, no comparison.

Yea, wow. They don't have a CPU forum? Just "General Hardware"? Their forums look like a worse version of Tom's and doesn't even have a CPU section? And the posts are very much like I see on Tom's where it's newbies asking basic troubleshooting questions. I will not be going there.

Sharkyforums is technically still there, just an absolute ghost town. I'd sooner suggest all AT people join there and revive it.

Hitman928 · Sep 2, 2024

Markfw said:
Yea I registered and posted one reply. Then I got an email that I had posted, and the reply was nice, but I get the feeling there is a real lack of knowledge there. I tried it because poke01 said he was going there when these close, but damn, no comparison.

I have accounts at overclockers.com, Tom’s, and overclockers.uk but only post at the first one with any frequency. It’s not very busy but it’s a good core group.

poke01 · Sep 2, 2024

Markfw said:
Yea I registered and posted one reply. Then I got an email that I had posted, and the reply was nice, but I get the feeling there is a real lack of knowledge there. I tried it because poke01 said he was going there when these close, but damn, no comparison.

Yeah TPU forums is nothing compared to here but it’s something. I kinda don’t want this community to disappear.

It does get lively around CPU and GPU launches particularly in the review comment section but yeah it’s the next best site after Anandtech imo.

Thunder 57 · Sep 2, 2024

I was able to register at Sharkyforums. Unless we all agree to go there though there isn't any point. I think it's time we created a new thread to discuss the future.

Markfw · Sep 2, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
I was able to register at Sharkyforums. Unless we all agree to go there though there isn't any point. I think it's time we created a new thread to discuss the future.

And I think the post deserves to be here, as we want the people we love in this forum to discuss it, not the regulars in OT or P&N. Right @DAPUNISHER ??

Markfw · Sep 2, 2024

Markfw said:
Yea I registered and posted one reply. Then I got an email that I had posted, and the reply was nice, but I get the feeling there is a real lack of knowledge there. I tried it because poke01 said he was going there when these close, but damn, no comparison.

Well, they deleted my 3 post which simply said read post number 2, which the guy didn't. Cross them off my list permanently.

511 · Sep 2, 2024

I don't want these forum to disappear 😭😭

coercitiv · Sep 2, 2024

This is not the doom & gloom thread, this is the Intel thread. (see what I did there?)

Stay on topic!

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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