Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

igor_kavinski · Sep 4, 2024

Det0x said:
But its really strange to me that these mobile chips have so high latency compared desktop

Due to soldered LPDDR5 or 5X.

Magio · Sep 4, 2024

It's not an excuse for advertising an unfair comparison, but in which scenarios would you actually be running AI workloads on the CPU, when you have an NPU and GPU available? Seems counter productive both in power consumption and performance.

csbin · Sep 4, 2024

Det0x said:
Yeah seems like you are correct 👍
View attachment 106802

But its really strange to me that these mobile chips have so high latency compared desktop, this is one of my old runs on regular Zen5
(on latest tune i haven't made made public yet, i'm sub 74ms)
View attachment 106803

This question still remains, will be interesting when we get closer to launch

AIDA64 and Clam memory are not comparable.

Kepler_L2 · Sep 4, 2024

Det0x said:
Yeah seems like you are correct 👍
View attachment 106802

But its really strange to me that these mobile chips have so high latency compared desktop, this is one of my old runs on regular Zen5
(on latest tune i haven't made made public yet, i'm sub 74ms)
View attachment 106803

This question still remains, will be interesting when we get closer to launch

MTL memory latency with DDR5 is around 85-90 ns IIRC.

Det0x · Sep 4, 2024

csbin said:
AIDA64 and Clam memory are not comparable.

i'm comparing clam to clam, bottom left of the screenshot i posted

csbin · Sep 4, 2024

Det0x said:
i'm comparing clam to clam, bottom left of the screenshot i posted
View attachment 106805

It's safe to say that Intel's lnl latency tests are wrong!

LPDDR5X 8533 should have ~110ns+ latency

Qualcomm’s Oryon Core: A Long Time in the Making

In 2019, a startup called Nuvia came out of stealth mode.

chipsandcheese.com

Hitman928 · Sep 4, 2024

Det0x said:
i'm comparing clam to clam, bottom left of the screenshot i posted
View attachment 106805

LPDDR has higher latency. LNL I believe uses LPDDRX which may account for some or most of the difference, not sure.

MS_AT · Sep 4, 2024

Hitman928 said:
LPDDR has higher latency. LNL I believe uses LPDDRX which may account for some or most of the difference, not sure.

The packaging should also bring latency benefits I guess. I mean memory is on package, doesn't need to go through motherboard PCB. It's physically much closer to the CPU than otherwise would be possible.

Hitman928 · Sep 4, 2024

MS_AT said:
The packaging should also bring latency benefits I guess. I mean memory is on package, doesn't need to go through motherboard PCB. It's physically much closer to the CPU than otherwise would be possible.

The latency added by the additional distance is insignificant. You may get a small benefit if you don’t have to buffer as much due to the close proximity and reduced parasitics.

9949asd · Sep 4, 2024

cebri1 said:
The results are pretty much aligned with expectations. 265K should have around the same performance of the 13/14900K.

265k real performance 360aio r23 38k at 180w 60+c。

511 · Sep 4, 2024

9949asd said:
265k real performance 360aio r23 38k at 180w 60+c。

Where is my screenshot to back it up with HWinfo👀

9949asd · Sep 4, 2024

511 said:
Where is my screenshot to back it up with HWinfo👀

No screenshot, no need to back it up, soon we will know it.

igor_kavinski · Sep 4, 2024

511 said:
Where is my screenshot to back it up with HWinfo👀

That result is from a top secret subterranean lab. The message was delivered via note slipped out through a guard and a brave individual risked his life, trekking over miles of rocky terrain littered with hungry hyenas and venomous critters to make the post possible. Go easy on him!

jdubs03 · Sep 4, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
That result is from a top secret subterranean lab. The message was delivered via note slipped out through a guard and a brave individual risked his life, trekking over miles of rocky terrain littered with hungry hyenas and venomous critters to make the post possible. Go easy on him!

Hyenas on rocky terrain. I MUST BE TRIPPIN.
Everything else checks out that though.

dullard · Sep 4, 2024

Det0x said:
But its really strange to me that these mobile chips have so high latency compared to desktop, this is one of my old runs on regular Zen5
(on latest tune i haven't made made public yet, i'm sub 74ms)

LPDDR has higher bandwidth but worse latency than DDR. It is difficult to find CAS latency values for LPDDR5, but if the CL was 39* instead of your CL of 32 (22% more latency), that would explain all the difference. Here is Anandtech's article on it (which was copied from another article since even Anandtech didn't have permission to download the JEDEC timing standards).

JEDEC Publishes LPDDR5X Standard at up to 8533 Mbps

www.anandtech.com

Extended Latencies - LPDDR5X SDRAM devices support extended Read, Write, nWR, ODTLon and ODTLoff Latency Values to account for longer number of cycle it takes to do the data access to memory array.

* There is an AI page that you can find that estimates CL40 for LPDDR5, but I didn't find that credible enough to put too much emphasis on it. I'll just leave this as an IF statement: if the CAS latency is 39.

igor_kavinski · Sep 4, 2024

dullard said:
but if the CL was 39 instead of your CL of 32 (22% more latency), that would explain all the difference.

LPDDR5X-7200 can work at CL28 in CAMM2 form factor: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...tosses-expert-ai-branding-in-for-good-measure

Seems Intel could be keeping costs low (for themselves) with lower quality on-package RAM?

dullard · Sep 4, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
LPDDR5X-7200 can work at CL28 in CAMM2 form factor: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...tosses-expert-ai-branding-in-for-good-measure

Seems Intel could be keeping costs low (for themselves) with lower quality on-package RAM?

That would work out to be, what, CL34 at higher frequencies?

I don't really know what the latency is for Lunar Lake. But it is possible that Intel is going with cheaper (and/or more available) higher latency RAM rather than cutting edge RAM. My point is just that people posting above can't claim the latency tests are wrong when we don't even know the latency of the memory being used.

controlflow · Sep 4, 2024

Looks like some machines are popping up for purchase

Buy New ASUS AI Laptop|Discover the best OLED Laptops at Affordable Prices| Now available at ASUS Store

Powered by AI Experience unparalleled performance on Windows 11 Home. Featuring an ultra-fast Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 Series 2 processor with a dedicated AI NPU for 48 TOPs and Intel® Arc™ graphics, the S 14 performs at a higher efficiency and accelerates local AI processes like never before...

shop.asus.com

They can't ship until another 20 days however.

I am curious if these machines with bright high refresh rate OLEDs end up getting poor battery life even with an efficient SOC. Seem like pretty power hungry displays.

SiliconFly · Sep 4, 2024

511 said:
Where is my screenshot to back it up with HWinfo👀

Trust me bro! 🫤

If we can't trust an unverified post from an anonymous member, where is the world headed?

igor_kavinski · Sep 4, 2024

controlflow said:
Buy New ASUS AI Laptop|Discover the best OLED Laptops at Affordable Prices| Now available at ASUS Store

Powered by AI Experience unparalleled performance on Windows 11 Home. Featuring an ultra-fast Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 Series 2 processor with a dedicated AI NPU for 48 TOPs and Intel® Arc™ graphics, the S 14 performs at a higher efficiency and accelerates local AI processes like never before...

shop.asus.com

At least they have priced the 32GB laptop relatively reasonably.

SiliconFly · Sep 4, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
At least they have priced the 32GB laptop relatively reasonably.

Yikes! You think 1,500/- for a Lunar Lake laptop is reasonable? Sounds a bit expensive.

9949asd said:
265k real performance 360aio r23 38k at 180w 60+c。

If true, it indicates a huge IPC increase (>15% to 20%) I think.

igor_kavinski · Sep 4, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Yikes! You think 1,500/- for a Lunar Lake laptop is reasonable? Sounds a bit expensive.

Better than what Dell is charging for their 16GB slower one.

And ASUS will discount it after a year or so (if they overproduce )

I see them selling old stock Tiger Lake at below $200 on their local online store (UAE).

SiliconFly · Sep 4, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
And ASUS will discount it after a year or so (if they overproduce )

That would be fantastic!

igor_kavinski said:
I see them selling old stock Tiger Lake at below $200 on their local online store (UAE).

Tiger Lake for 200$ is still a very good deal imho. Pretty decent performance.

igor_kavinski · Sep 4, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Tiger Lake for 200$ is still a very good deal imho. Pretty decent performance.

I was MOST tempted to get it, but then I already have a "Ice Lake laptop turned mini desktop" that I bought from a 15 year old kid, one 17 inch HP Tiger Lake 32GB RAM laptop that I use for Teams meetings and one Ice Lake 8GB LPDDR4 laptop because the price was too good at something like $190 (plus it came with a stylus!).

511 · Sep 4, 2024

R24 number from core ultra 9

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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