Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

AcrosTinus · Monday at 7:54 PM

Markfw said:
This is not correct. Statistically, many consumers are not starved, but there are quite a few like me, and many others who really could use threadripper in an affordable package, but can not get.

I added "average" consumer, no one needing a threadripper is a average consumer

511 · Monday at 10:31 PM

OneEng2 said:
Not that I have been following this as closely as I used to, but a little research dug up this:

AMD Turin - 192 cores Zen 5c and Zen 5 variants (I think) - release Q4 2024
Intel Sierra Forest - 144 E cores - Release June 2024
Intel Sierra Forest - 288 E cores - Release Q4 2024 (Intel hasn't been very good about meeting their server roadmap lately though)
Intel Granite Rapids - 2025

So Zen 5 will go against GNR and Turin dense vs SRF but we have Clearwater Forest as well to complete 288 stronger Chadmont cores launching Q3

fastandfurious6 · Tuesday at 12:42 AM

511 said:
Big Win for Intel

Intel and AWS Expand Strategic Collaboration, Helping Advance U.S.-Based Chip Manufacturing

www.intc.com

Amazon is one of the worst customers they can have

511 · Tuesday at 12:47 AM

fastandfurious6 said:
Amazon is one of the worst customers they can have

Why lmao anyway intel won't care as long as they get orders for their Fab
It is all about $$ universal truth

DrMrLordX · Tuesday at 3:06 AM

eek2121 said:
AVX-512 can accelerate a ton of workloads, even the web browser. Hopefully someone will drop a build of Firefox that supports it.

I would love to see someone do a Firefox fork (Palemoon and Waterfox, where are you?) with an eye towards SIMD optimizations. It took years to even get Firefox to support 64bit mode, so I'm not holding out much hope that they'll optimize for performance in that fashion.

eek2121 said:
I hope all you folks are doing well. I dropped by briefly to see what is new. I have some medical issues going on, so I haven’t been on the forum very much lately.

Doing well enough, thanks. Keep up with us, the main site shut down but the forums are still going strong. For now!

OneEng2 · Tuesday at 10:58 AM

511 said:
So Zen 5 will go against GNR and Turin dense vs SRF but we have Clearwater Forest as well to complete 288 stronger Chadmont cores launching Q3

Everything I can find says 2025.... but it seems unlikely since we are now seeing Intel push back the server processors that they originally said would be released in 2024 to 2025. Also, this processor was supposed to use GAA and BPD. That seems like a lot of new stuff in a very short time window to me.

Perhaps I am being a bit pessimistic on Intel. I have had the shine rubbed off of that penny since the 10nm debacle that drug on forever. Then we had Intel talking about 5 die shrinks in 4 years ..... and now they are moving production to TSMC. It has the appearance that Intel has lost its lead in process technology, and isn't getting it back any time soon. Of course, I thought P4 was going to hurt them much more than it did. Turned out just to be a bump in the road.... but that was just a bad processor design. They still had an undisputed process advantage then.

My contention (guess) is that things will be quite a bit different for Intel without a huge process advantage. My current comparison is that Arrow Lake is competitive performance wise with Zen 5, but it does so at the cost of a more expensive process. This shows up in Intel's bottom line.

Now, I have been doing this way too long to say anything silly like "Intel is doomed". They are a power to be reconned with for sure. I am more thinking that Intel will have much more trouble than they did in the past as the landscape has changed for them in a more fundamental way.

Looking back at the server roadmaps for Intel, it seems like it has been moving back quite a bit. Perhaps this is true for AMD as well, but then, AMD managed to gain a huge upper hand in this segment and Intel (again) is playing catch-up. Can Intel actually "catch up" without a 1 to 2 generation die shrink process advantage? Can Intel catch up in AI processing? Seems like they have managed to get caught with their pants down in a number of computing area technologies, and now they have to "catch up" without the endless supply of cash they once enjoyed at a time when they are cutting back on resources as well.

I'm not counting them out by any means though. They have a way of turning things around in inventive ways (technological, political, and market wise). I would say that it seems like they have more "turning around" to do than they have had in the past though.

9949asd · Tuesday at 11:17 AM

OneEng2 said:
Everything I can find says 2025.... but it seems unlikely since we are now seeing Intel push back the server processors that they originally said would be released in 2024 to 2025. Also, this processor was supposed to use GAA and BPD. That seems like a lot of new stuff in a very short time window to me.

Perhaps I am being a bit pessimistic on Intel. I have had the shine rubbed off of that penny since the 10nm debacle that drug on forever. Then we had Intel talking about 5 die shrinks in 4 years ..... and now they are moving production to TSMC. It has the appearance that Intel has lost its lead in process technology, and isn't getting it back any time soon. Of course, I thought P4 was going to hurt them much more than it did. Turned out just to be a bump in the road.... but that was just a bad processor design. They still had an undisputed process advantage then.

My contention (guess) is that things will be quite a bit different for Intel without a huge process advantage. My current comparison is that Arrow Lake is competitive performance wise with Zen 5, but it does so at the cost of a more expensive process. This shows up in Intel's bottom line.

Now, I have been doing this way too long to say anything silly like "Intel is doomed". They are a power to be reconned with for sure. I am more thinking that Intel will have much more trouble than they did in the past as the landscape has changed for them in a more fundamental way.

Looking back at the server roadmaps for Intel, it seems like it has been moving back quite a bit. Perhaps this is true for AMD as well, but then, AMD managed to gain a huge upper hand in this segment and Intel (again) is playing catch-up. Can Intel actually "catch up" without a 1 to 2 generation die shrink process advantage? Can Intel catch up in AI processing? Seems like they have managed to get caught with their pants down in a number of computing area technologies, and now they have to "catch up" without the endless supply of cash they once enjoyed at a time when they are cutting back on resources as well.

I'm not counting them out by any means though. They have a way of turning things around in inventive ways (technological, political, and market wise). I would say that it seems like they have more "turning around" to do than they have had in the past though.

Intel will make the clearwater forest using n3e in 2025. that’s the first server chip to compete with amd.

cebri1 · Tuesday at 11:20 AM

9949asd said:
Intel will make the clearwater forest using n3e in 2025. that’s the first server chip to compete with amd.

No! CFW is 18A. And current solutions already compete with AMD.

OneEng2 · Tuesday at 11:24 AM

9949asd said:
Intel will make the clearwater forest using n3e in 2025. that’s the first server chip to compete with amd.

So both Turnin dense and Clearwater Forest will be using N3E. Should be an interesting exercise and comparison. First time in my memory that an Intel and AMD chip were both produced on the same process.

511 · Tuesday at 11:27 AM

9949asd said:
Intel will make the clearwater forest using n3e in 2025. that’s the first server chip to compete with amd.

It is fully in-house they have said it in the white paper lol

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/central-libraries/us/en/documents/2024-02/intel-tech-clearwater-wp.pdf

Same as GNR/SRF lol i bet your source for N3E is MLID 😂🤣

511 · Tuesday at 11:27 AM

OneEng2 said:
So both Turnin dense and Clearwater Forest will be using N3E. Should be an interesting exercise and comparison. First time in my memory that an Intel and AMD chip were both produced on the same process.

Nope N3E is for GPU FLS and Xe3

OneEng2 · Tuesday at 11:28 AM

cebri1 said:
No! CFW is 18A. And current solutions already compete with AMD.

Then Intel has a great deal riding on 18A.

New core, BSPD, GAA, Die shrink. Seems like a lot between now and a year from now. Not sure I would bet my 401K on that one .

511 · Tuesday at 11:29 AM

OneEng2 said:
Then Intel has a great deal riding on 18A.

New core, BSPD, GAA, Die shrink. Seems like a lot between now and a year from now. Not sure I would bet my 401K on that one .

You won't but intel has already betted everything on 18A 🤣

511 · Tuesday at 11:34 AM

OneEng2 said:
Everything I can find says 2025.... but it seems unlikely since we are now seeing Intel push back the server processors that they originally said would be released in 2024 to 2025. Also, this processor was supposed to use GAA and BPD. That seems like a lot of new stuff in a very short time window to me.

When was the pushback EMR/SRF were on time SRF is quite good for it's market

OneEng2 said:
Perhaps I am being a bit pessimistic on Intel. I have had the shine rubbed off of that penny since the 10nm debacle that drug on forever. Then we had Intel talking about 5 die shrinks in 4 years ..... and now they are moving production to TSMC. It has the appearance that Intel has lost its lead in process technology, and isn't getting it back any time soon. Of course, I thought P4 was going to hurt them much more than it did. Turned out just to be a bump in the road.... but that was just a bad processor design. They still had an undisputed process advantage then.

No comments on 10nm it is/was a disaster but at least they got their senses back and are dual sourcing

OneEng2 said:
My contention (guess) is that things will be quite a bit different for Intel without a huge process advantage. My current comparison is that Arrow Lake is competitive performance wise with Zen 5, but it does so at the cost of a more expensive process. This shows up in Intel's bottom line.

Agreed for the cost no one has idea unless someone measures everything but for volume it will be Intel

OneEng2 said:
Now, I have been doing this way too long to say anything silly like "Intel is doomed". They are a power to be reconned with for sure. I am more thinking that Intel will have much more trouble than they did in the past as the landscape has changed for them in a more fundamental way.

Yes

OneEng2 said:
Looking back at the server roadmaps for Intel, it seems like it has been moving back quite a bit. Perhaps this is true for AMD as well, but then, AMD managed to gain a huge upper hand in this segment and Intel (again) is playing catch-up. Can Intel actually "catch up" without a 1 to 2 generation die shrink process advantage? Can Intel catch up in AI processing? Seems like they have managed to get caught with their pants down in a number of computing area technologies, and now they have to "catch up" without the endless supply of cash they once enjoyed at a time when they are cutting back on resources as well.

Depends on scenarios Intel still has huge SW to complement their processor also "AI" Performance is still better on Intel

OneEng2 said:
I'm not counting them out by any means though. They have a way of turning things around in inventive ways (technological, political, and market wise). I would say that it seems like they have more "turning around" to do than they have had in the past though.

Yes It's how Andy Grove turned Intel from memory to cpu company btw that guy was nuts when he was changing buisness strategy he went to the guys and the guys wo didn't agreed with him on his strategy were fired on site

cebri1 · Tuesday at 11:35 AM

OneEng2 said:
Then Intel has a great deal riding on 18A.

New core, BSPD, GAA, Die shrink. Seems like a lot between now and a year from now. Not sure I would bet my 401K on that one .

☝️

9949asd · Tuesday at 12:36 PM

511 said:
It is fully in-house they have said it in the white paper lol

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/central-libraries/us/en/documents/2024-02/intel-tech-clearwater-wp.pdf
Same as GNR/SRF lol i bet your source for N3E is MLID 😂🤣

No, an intel employee said that. Who the heck will watch MLID.

Hitman928 · Tuesday at 12:47 PM

9949asd said:
No, an intel employee said that. Who the heck will watch MLID.

Granted, Intel pulled a bait and switch with ARL and 20a, but we had lots of leaks for a while telling us that ARL was actually an N3B product outside a small volume of 20a chips. There have been no such leaks that I've seen for 18a/CWF. Assuming, for the moment, that an actual Intel employee said that CWF is really on N3E, are you sure he'd even be in a position to know? What is the explanation for why Intel is publicly saying that CWF has taped out on 18a?

511 · Tuesday at 12:48 PM

Are you sure cause you can't dual source this time unless you have the design ready anyway i am not buying this N3E Clearwater Rumour cause this is from official presentation at a conference

511 · Tuesday at 12:57 PM

We have reach a stage where official info is not official according to some people bruh you can't lie on such a large scale for Intel 18A They have been selling it to investor as their lead product stop spreading lies on things that are confirmed

DavidC1 · Tuesday at 12:59 PM

OneEng2 said:
Then Intel has a great deal riding on 18A.

New core, BSPD, GAA, Die shrink. Seems like a lot between now and a year from now. Not sure I would bet my 401K on that one .

Clearwater Forest is not a new core. The core is going to be used in both Lunarlake and Arrowlake. Clearwater Forest's core is a small update.

Also it's redundant to say BSPD, GAA, and Die Shrink. They are all part of the new process technology.

511 · Tuesday at 1:01 PM

DavidC1 said:
Clearwater Forest is not a new core. The core is going to be used in both Lunarlake and Arrowlake. Clearwater Forest's core is a small update.

Also it's redundant to say BSPD, GAA, and Die Shrink. They are all part of the new process technology.

It is a updated core on entirely new node with GAA and BSPD so i would call it new otherwise crestmont wouldn't be a new core ?

jdubs03 · Tuesday at 1:20 PM

Remember it’s supposed to be Darkmont (revised Skymont) that will be in CWF.

naukkis · Tuesday at 1:21 PM

Intel is about to go out of business because their fab has failed to execute time after time. If you were head of Intel do you still make important products to not yet production ready internal process without making back-up plan - dual source your products? I think that now every Intel product is dual sourced and tsmc version will be released on time if internal fab fails - which is more than likely.

9949asd · Tuesday at 1:22 PM

511 said:
We have reach a stage where official info is not official according to some people bruh you can't lie on such a large scale for Intel 18A They have been selling it to investor as their lead product stop spreading lies on things that are confirmed

Just wait till intel to announce🤪they just did changed the ARL u5 u3 from 20a to full n3b.

9949asd · Tuesday at 1:27 PM

9949asd said:
Just wait till intel to announce🤪they just did changed the ARL u5 u3 from 20a to full n3b.

And I’m really think intel use tmsc in the next 3 years will be the only way to make things work.

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