Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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Apr 1, 2022
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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E012 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4TSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025		Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15



Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



 

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511

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DavidC1 said:
Lunarlake: https://www.laptopmag.com/laptops/w...s-with-an-astounding-18-hours-of-battery-life

Versus competing chips:
LaptopBattery life (web surfing hh:mm)UL Procyon Office Productivity Battery LIfe
Dell XPS 13 9345 (Snapdragon X Elite)19:01Not tested
Dell XPS 13 9350 (Intel Core Ultra 7 258V)18:3423:38
Apple MacBook Pro 14 M317:16Not tested

Why I wouldn't get an OLED display:
LaptopBattery life (web surfing hh:mm)UL Procyon Office Productivity Battery LIfe
Dell XPS 13 9350 (Intel Core Ultra 7 258V)18:3423:38
Dell XPS 13 9350 OLED (Intel Core Ultra 7 258V)08:4012:48

Versus other Lunarlake device:
LaptopBattery life (web surfing hh:mm)UL Procyon Office Productivity Battery LIfe
Asus Zenbook S 14 (Intel Core Ultra 7 258V)13:5116:21
Dell XPS 13 9350 OLED (Intel Core Ultra 7 258V)08:4012:48
Click to expand...
Same reason I don't buy oled until it's better you turn a white image or crank brightness and it will destroy battery like nothing else something even apple is afraid of on laptops
 
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DavidC1

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511 said:
Same reason I don't buy oled until it's better you turn a white image or crank brightness and it will destroy battery like nothing else something even apple is afraid of on laptops
Click to expand...
Worse, OLED will have burn in issues. Why would I pay $1800 dollars for a "premium" laptop with a display with worse lifespan than a QLC SSD without DRAM cache and cut battery life anywhere from 33 to 50%?

OLED displays are -$300 worth to me.
 
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DavidC1

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Abwx said:
This change nothing since it s Spec_int, beside Zen 4 mobile is the same as Zen 4 DT, and it cant be just a few % better than a Zen 2, be it a DT one, there s at least 25-30% INT IPC between those gens.
Click to expand...
You might want to take notice of the fact that Intel chips there aren't performing well in that test either. But I know you don't want to.
igor_kavinski said:
Very cool. So Zen 5c and Skymont are evenly matched.
Click to expand...
Yup, radically different approach, company, process and the results are similar.

This is the key though. An actual efficiency core.
 
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A

Abwx

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Apr 2, 2011
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DavidC1 said:
You might want to take notice of the fact that Intel chips there aren't performing well in that test either. But I know you don't want to.

Yup, radically different approach, company, process and the results are similar.
Click to expand...

Actualy the 155H perform better at Geekerwan, by 7.4%, than at Chip and Cheese who use a more recent GCC compiler, so what is to be aknowledged here.?.

His Zen 5 score is 8.8 while if i downscale CaC score to 5.1Ghz i end at 10.647, that is, 21% higher than his alleged score at 5.1GHz.

Likewise his Zen 4 score is 7.99 at 5.2 Ghz while a downscale of CaC score yield 9.579, that is, almost 20% difference, and curiously, but unsurprisingly, the same as with Zen 5.
 
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511

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DavidC1 said:
Worse, OLED will have burn in issues. Why would I pay $1800 dollars for a "premium" laptop with a display with worse lifespan than a QLC SSD without DRAM cache and cut battery life anywhere from 33 to 50%?

OLED displays are -$300 worth to me.
Click to expand...
That as well the manufacturers can market all they want but Oled Lifespan is something different also on Mobile phones they usually go to sleep that prevents burn in but on laptop people treat it as a desktop it stays at the same picture for hours we disable sleep and other things that we don't do with Mobile phones
A gamer example we leave steam/torrent on download for a large file it is mostly static picture excluding small area overnight
 
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DavidC1

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For those of you that think Intel's P core team is still good, David Huang points out in his review that the branch mispredict in Lion Cove regressed compared to Golden Cove.

In contrast, Skymont's branch predictor improved substantially over Gracemont, and now exceeds not only Zen 4's MKPI performance but also Lion Cove's as well.

Huang also points out that the performance per watt of Lion Cove cluster is poor despite being on a new process.

P core team, it's time to be replaced!
511 said:
That as well the manufacturers can market all they want but Oled Lifespan is something different also on Mobile phones they usually go to sleep that prevents burn in but on laptop people treat it as a desktop it stays at the same picture for hours we disable sleep and other things that we don't do with Mobile phones
Click to expand...
I simply don't want to worry about my display flunking. I had desktop monitors have problems after 5 years of usage(Samsung models) but that's regular degradation. OLED burn-in is pretty much a certainty.

OLED is perfect for modern throw-away junk that needs borrowing credit to afford it.
 
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DavidC1

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Intel absolutely nailed Skymont based on that power/perf graph by Huang. The performance over Crestmont is lot lower than expected but makes up by the stunning improvements in power efficiency. I have to think they are probably related, and Arrowlake's Skymont will have a different perf/watt behavior. Skymont is really the star here in driving Lunarlake's efficiency probably all the way to moderate usage.

It beats everything to quite high power levels but it can truly scale down way low.

On a side note, you can see how MTL's LPE core power numbers are seriously hobbled by bad design, because powering down uncore makes power efficiency similar to E cores, while on default mode it is much less efficient.
 
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5

511

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DavidC1 said:
For those of you that think Intel's P core team is still good, David Huang points out in his review that the branch mispredict in Lion Cove regressed compared to Golden Cove.

In contrast, Skymont's branch predictor improved substantially over Gracemont, and now exceeds not only Zen 4's MKPI performance but also Lion Cove's as well.

Huang also points out that the performance per watt of Lion Cove cluster is poor despite being on a new process.

P core team, it's time to be replaced!
Click to expand...
We know for the past few archs that it is bad Skymont is just amazing improvement P core PPA is dead they need to redesign it from ground
DavidC1 said:
I simply don't want to worry about my display flunking. I had desktop monitors have problems after 5 years of usage(Samsung models) but that's regular degradation. OLED burn-in is pretty much a certainty.

OLED is perfect for modern throw-away junk that needs borrowing credit to afford it.
Click to expand...
This as well IPS doesn't have the shit reliability of oled at least mini led is the best of both world
 
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D

DavidC1

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511 said:
We know for the past few archs that it is bad Skymont is just amazing improvement P core PPA is dead they need to redesign it from ground
Click to expand...
It's the TEAM in P core that needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground.

Because if it was just the design, at least they could fix it. This kind of improvement after 3 years just piss-poor.
511 said:
This as well IPS doesn't have the shit reliability of oled at least mini led is the best of both world
Click to expand...
I remember when OLED was said to be "organic" and that it could lower power drastically because it doesn't need a backlight and I was young at that time and hoped for it but had bit of skepticism.

Some things don't come for free. You can't have the best contrast, best color and have lower power consumption. Something has to give. Yea you can do little better with better engineering, that always exist.
 
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igor_kavinski

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DavidC1 said:
It's the TEAM in P core that needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground.
Click to expand...
Hard to do. It's IDC, from what I understand and they have Intel by the balls with their claim that Intel owes them for getting them out of the P4 mess with Banias and later Core arch. Remember, Intel is a haven of dirty politics.
 
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DavidC1

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igor_kavinski said:
Hard to do. It's IDC, from what I understand and they have Intel by the balls with their claim that Intel owes them for getting them out of the P4 mess with Banias and later Core arch. Remember, Intel is a haven of dirty politics.
Click to expand...
The IDC of up to 5 years post-Core is not the IDC today. BK basically gutted all the important people.

It would be very unfortunate if they can't change that, because IDC at the PEAK was nowhere near the pace of development the current E core team is on.

According to reports on reddit they were already getting greedy by Ivy Bridge era. Take it with a grain of salt, but the execs did not see the point investing in uarch because AMD was uncompetitive, and they had no need to go beyond 4 cores when AMD had chips such as Bulldozer.

Remember how disappointing Lion Cove is with the 10-12% gain? Well That's what we got with Haswell and Skylake.
 
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5

511

Golden Member
Jul 12, 2024
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igor_kavinski said:
Hard to do. It's IDC, from what I understand and they have Intel by the balls with their claim that Intel owes them for getting them out of the P4 mess with Banias and later Core arch. Remember, Intel is a haven of dirty politics.
Click to expand...
Yes the Politics something no one at Intel can control and one of the reason for the mess they are in the politics were under the CEOs control for long until Paul/BK took over 🤣
 
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H

H433x0n

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Mar 15, 2023
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Abwx said:
The 128C Xeon has a 11.8% advantage at 39% more power than a 96C Zen 4, that put things in perspective, at same 500W power the 96C Epyc would outmatch the 128C Xeon.

With 33% more cores the Zen 5 based Epyc will have 1.33 x 1.16 = 54% higher throughput than the 96C Genoa if TDP is increased to 500W up from the curent 360W,
and enough to outmatch the Xeon by 35% at same power or eventualy have the same perfs but then at 0.5x the power.

And there s the dense version that wil add 18% perf/wat on top of the numbers above, that is to ay that Intel wil stil be late by a full, if not two, gens.



He better use a more recent version of GCC because his numbers for Zen 4 and 5 do not make sense at all, per clock his Zen 5 score is lower than the one of a Zen 4 and his Zen 4 is just slightly better than a Zen 2, but the score of the 155H for sure is not underestimated...



Running SPEC CPU2017 at Chips and Cheese?

SPEC, or Standard Performance Evaluation Corporation, maintains and publishes various benchmark suites that are often taken as an industry standard.
chipsandcheese.com
Click to expand...
It’s 25% and 22% stronger than traditional Genoa and Bergamo respectively. The CPU you’re referencing is Genoa vcache SKU, which I don’t think is going to be available at the initial launch on October 10th.
 
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H

H433x0n

Golden Member
Mar 15, 2023
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DavidC1 said:
For those of you that think Intel's P core team is still good, David Huang points out in his review that the branch mispredict in Lion Cove regressed compared to Golden Cove.

In contrast, Skymont's branch predictor improved substantially over Gracemont, and now exceeds not only Zen 4's MKPI performance but also Lion Cove's as well.

Huang also points out that the performance per watt of Lion Cove cluster is poor despite being on a new process.

P core team, it's time to be replaced!
Click to expand...
I would’ve liked more from Lion Cove as well but you’re losing the forest for the trees. There’s only 1 other x86 competitor and against Zen 5 it’s just as performant (if not a few percent better in integer performance) while not drawing any extra power.

If somebody said that would be the result 6 months ago nobody on this forum would’ve believed you.
 
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igor_kavinski

Lifer
Jul 27, 2020
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DavidC1 said:
Remember how disappointing Lion Cove is with the 10-12% gain? Well That's what we got with Haswell and Skylake.
Click to expand...
Skylake was the beginning of the end for Intel. The bugs in that were what prompted Apple to ditch them coz Apple engineers were basically doing Intel's job for them by finding silicon bugs and reporting them to Intel. And Apple still gave them business till Ice Lake. I like to think that Skylake was when they decided to lie on their back and ass and all they could see was the sky, rather than incoming traffic. Pat tried to steer them but in the wrong direction!
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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511 said:
Yes it will require different mask
Click to expand...

Hitman928 said:
New masks required.
Click to expand...

Okay I thought so. So on to my next question: Intel didn't just buy N3B from TSMC's existing production capacity. Intel paid up front for an entire fab to be built to fill their order. TSMC was also forced to refit a research fab to full production to complete the order. Again, the devil's in the details (e.g. the contract), but wouldn't facilities built for N3B production require retooling before they could run N3E/N3P? Or am I overthinking this? Yes I suppose Intel could take N3E/N3P wafers per their contract from other facilities assuming TSMC is flexible enough to fill those orders, but . . .

Hitman928 said:
Falcon Shores hasn't been cancelled as far as I know, only the CPU+GPU version was cancelled, the GPU only version is still on the roadmap.
Click to expand...
This article is the closest I've seen to recent news regarding Falcon Shores:

Intel’s Falcon Shores Future Looks Bleak as It Concedes AI Training to GPU Rivals

Intel’s Falcon Shores future looks bleak as it concedes AI training to GPU rivals On Monday, Intel sent a letter to employees detailing its comeback plan after an abysmal second-quarter […]
www.hpcwire.com

Technically there was no official announcement of Falcon Shores being cancelled, though Gelsinger seemed to imply that it was DoA due to his statement about not competing with NV and AMD in the GPU AI training space.
 
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jur

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DrMrLordX said:
Technically there was no official announcement of Falcon Shores being cancelled, though Gelsinger seemed to imply that it was DoA due to his statement about not competing with NV and AMD in the GPU AI training space.
Click to expand...
Even AMD's GPUs are essentially DoA for training. Nvidia has massive software, interconnect / scale advantage. The new compute unit for them are racks with massive interconencts between the gpu. Google is the only one (as far as I know) that has similar interconnect infrastructure. AMD and Intel can only compete at smaller model traning and inference. We'll see what happens when Intel starts integrating silicon photonics into their hardware, but this will take years. Intel at least has solid software compared to AMD.
 
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