Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Abwx · Sep 26, 2024

H433x0n said:
Why is this such a sticking point? Nobody is buying LNL to render images.

It’s meant for battery life, web browsing, watching videos and office tasks. It’s also meant to be used an APU for handheld devices.

I used the exemple of chess game, that s surely more adequate when talking of real usage and it s as power hungry as rendering, also photo editing wich is now multithreaded since Computerbase use such an an app for MT tests, even browsers are multithreaded.

Tup3x said:
It's not made by AMD. That's the reason. 🫠

Lol, no, i would personaly gladly trade half of a 370 iGPU for 4 more cores, and the same for LNL wich lack at least 4 SKT cores to be really competitive, as it is in daily
usage it s no better than a 7540U wich is found in sub 700€ laptops, albeit with a much lower grade equipement.

SiliconFly · Sep 26, 2024

Abwx said:
You could use anything else that stress the CPU and it would be the same, 7 Zip or a Stockfish powered chess game , although for the later case you ll have 70% more chance to win a game against LNL.

You've opened my eyes!

I now realize that everyone who buys thin & lights will always do transcoding and run heavy multi-threaded workloads in the background at all times even when browsing the internet. 🖖

Abwx said:
I used the exemple of chess game, that s surely more adequate when talking of real usage and it s as power hungry as rendering, also photo editing wich is now multithreaded since Computerbase use such an an app for MT tests, even browsers are multithreaded.

Lol, no, i would personaly gladly trade half of a 370 iGPU for 4 more cores, and the same for LNL wich lack at least 4 SKT cores to be really competitive, as it is in daily
usage it s no better than a 7540U wich is found in sub 700€ laptops, albeit with a much lower grade equipement.

And comparing LNL with an outdated and under-performing processor like 7540U thats worse than a HX 370 doesn't quite cut it!

AcrosTinus · Sep 26, 2024

SiliconFly said:
You've opened my eyes!

I now realize that everyone who buys thin & lights will always do transcoding and run heavy multi-threaded workloads in the background at all times even when browsing the internet. 🖖

And comparing LNL with an outdated and under-performing processor like 7540U thats worse than a HX 370 doesn't quite cut it!

You are wasting your time, in some peoples mind AMD can do no wrong ...

Intel produces SKUs with high core and thread count -> what about efficiency, that die must be expensive, who needs that many cores on the go, these are not real cores, I don't want these cinebench accelerators, my battery suffers with not needed E-Cores.

Intel looks at the market and produces a precision crafted machines with good enough CPU and very good battery life -> look at the MT performance, how can I run my all core workloads like rendering and CINBENCH, this is not a good CPU.

I cannot.....

9949asd · Sep 26, 2024

Abwx said:
I used the exemple of chess game, that s surely more adequate when talking of real usage and it s as power hungry as rendering, also photo editing wich is now multithreaded since Computerbase use such an an app for MT tests, even browsers are multithreaded.

Lol, no, i would personaly gladly trade half of a 370 iGPU for 4 more cores, and the same for LNL wich lack at least 4 SKT cores to be really competitive, as it is in daily
usage it s no better than a 7540U wich is found in sub 700€ laptops, albeit with a much lower grade equipement.

Do you understand what is ultra thin notebook?

Markfw · Sep 26, 2024

9949asd said:
Do you understand what is ultra thin notebook?

Since I don't use one, I won't defend either position, HOWEVER, if you happen upon a task that DOES need good multicode performance, it sounds like the AMD would be a better choice. And battery life ? I can't imagine anybody would be away from electricity very long. You can get it on airplanes today, and many other places that require you to be alone. And I can understand wanting light laptops, I just got one I wanted that in.

So there definitely are points on both sides.

poke01 · Sep 26, 2024

controlflow said:
LNL's iGPU is in general the best performance and most efficient iGPU in the non-Apple ecosystem

The lack of class leading nT performance is just not that important in this segment. I would argue that the faster ST performance of LNL would be felt much more often by users of an ultra portable than the nT advantage of Strix would be.

This doesn't even capture the fact that LNL has far higher efficiency at ultra low power situations thanks to how much further Skymont can scale down to low power compared to Strix.

I'm not saying that Strix is a bad product, but it is very clearly in a different segment than something like LNL. At least make an effort to be objective. The arguments you make are incredibly disingenuous. You cherry pick scenarios that are largely irrelevant in the ultra portable segment to suit your biased narrative.

Yeah some are acting like Intel released a dud GPU like the X Elite GPU. The GPU in LNL is amazing. It’s also more advanced than RDNA 3.5.

SiliconFly · Sep 26, 2024

poke01 said:
Yeah some are acting like Intel released a dud GPU like the X Elite GPU. The GPU in LNL is amazing. It’s also more advanced than RDNA 3.5.

LNL is very good for light gaming. And another very important point is, Hyper-Threading is completely useless when it comes to gaming.

Markfw · Sep 26, 2024

SiliconFly said:
LNL is very good for light gaming. And another very important point is, Hyper-Threading is completely useless when it comes to gaming.

I am not pushing AMD, but gaming on a laptop ? It would seem most of the types that use ultrathin would be businessmen. Desktops for gaming I would say.

reb0rn · Sep 26, 2024

So no gaming on laptop but rendering on them is ok, understand

9949asd · Sep 26, 2024

Markfw said:
Since I don't use one, I won't defend either position, HOWEVER, if you happen upon a task that DOES need good multicode performance, it sounds like the AMD would be a better choice. And battery life ? I can't imagine anybody would be away from electricity very long. You can get it on airplanes today, and many other places that require you to be alone. And I can understand wanting light laptops, I just got one I wanted that in.

So there definitely are points on both sides.

The lunar lake can use for a full day that you don’t need to charge.

Markfw · Sep 26, 2024

9949asd said:
The lunar lake can use for a full day that you don’t need to charge.

I understand, and don't argue. But why is it so important is my question ? In todays world you have 110/220 everywhere, in the car in an airplane, everywhere that a businessman would need it.

poke01 · Sep 26, 2024

Markfw said:
I understand, and don't argue. But why is it so important is my question ? In todays world you have 110/220 everywhere, in the car in an airplane, everywhere that a businessman would need it.

Battery life is important still. Otherwise might as well ship laptops with no batteries and people gain power from outlets is what your implying?

What about the cases where power outlets aren’t available? Efficiency is a big win and it allows for cooler longer lasting batteries too.

9949asd · Sep 26, 2024

Markfw said:
I understand, and don't argue. But why is it so important is my question ? In today’s world you have 110/220 everywhere, in the car in an airplane, everywhere that a businessman would need it.

It’s kind of life style 😎, you don’t want to carry a brick of charger hanging around in a cafe or a classroom in university.

SiliconFly · Sep 26, 2024

Markfw said:
I am not pushing AMD, but gaming on a laptop ? It would seem most of the types that use ultrathin would be businessmen. Desktops for gaming I would say.

I think the thread got derailed a bit. I very specifically mentioned "light" gaming. Meaning, not for serious gamers (I myself use a Raptor Lake HX laptop with RTX for gaming).

Markfw · Sep 26, 2024

poke01 said:
Battery life is important still. Otherwise might as well ship laptops with no batteries and people gain power from outlets is what your implying?

What about the cases where power outlets aren’t available? Efficiency is a big win and it allows for cooler longer lasting batteries too.

I understand the need for batteries. It used to be that on 18 hour plane flights you needed it to be 18 hours. Or even on a bus (but most businessmen would not take a bus) But any other place did not need more than a few hours. But with USB4 providing power even 100 is not required most of the time.

Markfw · Sep 26, 2024

9949asd said:
It’s kind of life style 😎, you don’t want to carry a brick of charger hanging around in a cafe or a classroom in university.

USB 4 chargers are not a brick.

Khato · Sep 26, 2024

Markfw said:
I understand, and don't argue. But why is it so important is my question ? In todays world you have 110/220 everywhere, in the car in an airplane, everywhere that a businessman would need it.

Important for the same reason that battery life is important for a smartphone. Not quite to the same extent of course as a laptop is more usable while plugged in than a smartphone, but same base principle applies.

Markfw · Sep 26, 2024

Khato said:
Important for the same reason that battery life is important for a smartphone. Not quite to the same extent of course as a laptop is more usable while plugged in than a smartphone, but same base principle applies.

NO, when driving even a smartphone can use the car to receive calls, and be charged by car. The laptop does not need to be used in a car, but can charge from there.

SOMEBODY please give me a use case where you NEED a battery, and its longer than 8 hours (or so) and no power of any kind is available. In a reasonable use case. Playing games for a businessman is not a valid use case. Even students have external power there they are not in class. And they should not be playing games most places but be in class or studying.

Abwx · Sep 26, 2024

9949asd said:
It’s kind of life style 😎, you don’t want to carry a brick of charger hanging around in a cafe or a classroom in university.

Hanging on cafe for hours.?.
And i ve never had university courses that lasted more than 4 hours in a row,
at most three hours per half day, and not every day, that was something like
24h per week.

Khato said:
Important for the same reason that battery life is important for a smartphone. Not quite to the same extent of course as a laptop is more usable while plugged in than a smartphone, but same base principle applies.

A smartphone is a purely mobile device, a laptop not so much, youl ll rarely see someone with a laptop the same way as with smartphones, that s a home appliance more than anything else, sometime used during transportations, but for most people it s used as DT replacement as proved by the laptop/DT market wich is 65/35 if not 70/30.

9949asd · Sep 26, 2024

Abwx said:
Hanging on cafe for hours.?.
And i ve never had university courses that lasted more than 4 hours in a row,
at most three hours per half day, and not every day, that was something like
24h per week.

A smartphone is a purely mobile device, a laptop not so much, youl ll rarely see someone with a laptop the same way as with smartphones, that s a home appliance more than anything else, sometime used during transportations, but for most people it s used as DT replacement as proved by the laptop/DT market wich is 65/35 if not 70/30.

Ultra thin notebook it’s not like a normal laptop, it’s a mobile device.

Khato · Sep 26, 2024

Sigh. Obviously a laptop that's being used on a desk with a keyboard, mouse, and monitor really doesn't care about battery life. Great example of that is my ~4 year old work laptop with its 9 cycles on the battery.

By comparison my personal 14" 2-in-1 is primarily used as an actual laptop and despite almost always being within range of a charger while in use is rarely used plugged in. Why? Because when a laptop is not on a desk the charging cable is annoying. Hence why I compare it to using a smartphone while plugged in - sure you can do it, but it's not the preferred state of use. And just as with a smartphone, only having to plug it in once a day or less is preferable to having to plug it in every 4 hours.

Anyway, that's just my take on why battery life matters in cases where charging accessibility is not an issue.

S'renne · Sep 26, 2024

Doesn't most thin and light laptop users only plug in when the battery is about to die, rather than when an outlet is available because the performance for their usecase is imperceptible? That's the primary/most common behavior for the push towards better battery life I think, among many.

Markfw · Sep 26, 2024

S'renne said:
Doesn't most thin and light laptop users only plug in when the battery is about to die, rather than when an outlet is available because the performance for their usecase is imperceptible? That's the primary/most common behavior for the push towards better battery life I think, among many.

I plug in when I can, so I get full brightness and don't know when I might not be within range of an outlet. Most of the time I can't is in the hospital, and this does not apply to businessmen or students. But the brightness alone may be a key for many.

MoistOintment · Sep 26, 2024

Markfw said:
NO, when driving even a smartphone can use the car to receive calls, and be charged by car. The laptop does not need to be used in a car, but can charge from there.

SOMEBODY please give me a use case where you NEED a battery, and its longer than 8 hours (or so) and no power of any kind is available. In a reasonable use case. Playing games for a businessman is not a valid use case. Even students have external power there they are not in class. And they should not be playing games most places but be in class or studying.

Because it's generally just a qualify of life improvement. Let's say I hop on the train to a different city for a business trip (Acela between NYC and DC is common for me) and I'm working on the train.

And then I get there, and take the laptop into their office and work.

And then I'm back in the hotel room on the laptop.

And then the next day I'm at their office for a little working, and then back on the train home.

And at no point in that trip would I need to charge. *That* is a quality of life improvement. Confident all day battery means a student can take their laptop with them all day and leave the charger back in their dorm/house. It means you go to pick up your laptop that you haven't touched in a week, and it still has basically the same charge (limited data on sleep drain, but some comments from reviewers in the comment section mention it's massively improved).

What about just having enough battery life to finish the work day with over 50% charge instead of having just enough charge that you're ending the day in battery save mode?

If this doesn't appeal to you and you'd rather just sacrifice this battery for more nT, you're absolutely free to do so. It's not for you. But I don't have any use case for that nT on the go.

That fact that another commenter is saying they'd rather LNL/Strix cut iGPU for more cores is *wild* because that literally already exists. Go buy an HX series part.

8 hours of standard use battery is not *confident* all day battery, because you may in fact stress the CPU more than usual or have brightness on the screen higher than normal, and now you fall short of your needed amount of charge.

poke01 · Sep 26, 2024

Markfw said:
I plug in when I can, so I get full brightness and don't know when I might not be within range of an outlet. Most of the time I can't is in the hospital, and this does not apply to businessmen or students. But the brightness alone may be a key for many.

Interesting, I do hope that Intel fixes that issue of the brightness getting lowered on Lunar Lake especially on the IPS models. It’s efficient enough that there is no need to that anymore.

On MacBooks the display only dims on low power mode setting is enabled.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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