Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

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Raqia

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Nov 19, 2008
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View attachment 108251
Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 will be renamed as "Snapdragon 8 Elite"?
Rumor has it that Qualcomm will have a part based on the ARM X925 called the "8 Gen 4s"


It's likely to cost less and compete w/ the Samsung and Mediatek flagships as the "8 Elite" will perform a tier above those and likely be priced accordingly.

The branding choices Qualcomm has made seems particularly sensitive to the Chinese perception that "8" is lucky (particularly 3 8's cf. 888) and "4" is unlucky (homonym for death).

We'll see what they do when the inevitable "4" suffix arrives... (for instance "8 Elite Gen 4") but I'm sure they'll try to weasel away somehow.
 

mvprod123

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Jun 22, 2024
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Rumor has it that Qualcomm will have a part based on the ARM X925 called the "8 Gen 4s"


It's likely to cost less and compete w/ the Samsung and Mediatek flagships as the "8 Elite" will perform a tier above those and likely be priced accordingly.

The branding choices Qualcomm has made seems particularly sensitive to the Chinese perception that "8" is lucky (particularly 3 8's cf. 888) and "4" is unlucky (homonym for death).

We'll see what they do when the inevitable "4" suffix arrives... (for instance "8 Elite Gen 4") but I'm sure they'll try to weasel away somehow.
It will be funny if it's true. The X925 core has a better IPC than Oryon.
 

Raqia

Member
Nov 19, 2008
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It will be funny if it's true. The X925 core has a better IPC than Oryon.
Almost certainly; the Oryon 1.5 in the S8 Elite is rumored to have IPC ~ARM X4. However, the added complexity necessary for higher IPC will limit clocks and may not be the knee of the curve for PPA.
 
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DZero

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Jun 20, 2024
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Unless...
- Snapdragon Elite series becomes the new flagship processors
- Snapdragon 8s becomes 8 series or even Plus
- Snapdragon 7+ becomes 7
- Snapdragon 7 becomes 6
- Snapdragon 6s becomes 4
- Snapdragon 4s becomes 2

Just to give order due the chaos generated.
 

jdubs03

Senior member
Oct 1, 2013
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Almost certainly; the Oryon 1.5 in the S8 Elite is rumored to have IPC ~ARM X4. However, the added complexity necessary for higher IPC will limit clocks and may not be the knee of the curve for PPA.
Na. In terms of IPC, the Snapdragon 8 Elite is much higher than the X4. Keep in mind the X4 was in the Snapdragon 8 Gen 3. (I’m using the Galaxy specific versions for the comparison).

Galaxy S24 Ultra scores in the mid 2200s in GB6 ST at a 3.39GHz clock speed. So roughly 655 pts/GHz.

The Snapdragon 8 Elite is looking like it’ll score around the high 3200s at 4.47GHz (for Galaxy), or around 735 pts/GHz.

And the highest by far X925 score was a 3010 at 3.63GHz, or 829 pts/GHz (the median values are like in the 2800s, with some into the 2900s, so 780-820 pts/GHz).
A lot of variance with that right now clearly.

So the Snapdragon 8 Elite is right in the middle when clock normalizing performance. About 20 to 25% less IPC than the X925.
 
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FlameTail

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The number of "compute units" has doubled from Adreno 750 to Adreno 830!?

Adreno 750 (8G3) - 6 CUs

Adreno 830 (8G4) - 12 CUs

 

FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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If I can see for each side... the CU increased but the performance for each one decreased?
Yep. It seems with the new Adreno 8 series GPU architecture, the new CU is half the size of the old CU in Adreno 7.

Adreno 7 had 512 FP16 ALUs and 256 FP32 ALUs per CU.
 
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FlameTail

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Although Qualcomm was the first to bring Ray Tracing to mobile with the Adreno 740 (8G2 - 2022); theirs isn't the most advanced Ray Tracing implementation in a smartphone now. The A17 Pro (2023) which came one year later, surpassed it, and I believe the A18 Pro has the lead over Adreno 750 (8G3 - 2023).

Adreno 740/750 - Level 2 RT
A17/A18 - Level 3 RT

Ray Tracing levels as defined by Imagination Technologies;


Perhaps Adreno 830 will upgrade to Level 3 RT. One could hope...
 

poke01

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Mar 8, 2022
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Although Qualcomm was the first to bring Ray Tracing to mobile with the Adreno 740 (8G2 - 2022); theirs isn't the most advanced Ray Tracing implementation in a smartphone now. The A17 Pro (2023) which came one year later, surpassed it, and I believe the A18 Pro has the lead over Adreno 750 (8G3 - 2023).

Adreno 740/750 - Level 2 RT
A17/A18 - Level 3 RT

Ray Tracing levels as defined by Imagination Technologies;


Perhaps Adreno 830 will upgrade to Level 3 RT. One could hope...
Apples RT cores are pretty good but you won’t see them flex their muscle on solar bay, that’s why Geekerwan had to test on an intensive RT benchmark provided by 3D mark.
 
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mvprod123

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Jun 22, 2024
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Although Qualcomm was the first to bring Ray Tracing to mobile with the Adreno 740 (8G2 - 2022); theirs isn't the most advanced Ray Tracing implementation in a smartphone now. The A17 Pro (2023) which came one year later, surpassed it, and I believe the A18 Pro has the lead over Adreno 750 (8G3 - 2023).

Adreno 740/750 - Level 2 RT
A17/A18 - Level 3 RT

Ray Tracing levels as defined by Imagination Technologies;


Perhaps Adreno 830 will upgrade to Level 3 RT. One could hope...
It is interesting to know what Imagination's developments and patents were used to develop the Apple RT.
 
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ikjadoon

Senior member
Sep 4, 2006
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Snapdragon Dev Kit teardown by Jeff Geerling;


The GitHub issue, where Jeff has added some prelim. power numbers:


GB6 1T
28W total - 11W idle → 17W idle normalized | 4.3 GHz Oryon

Its 1T power seems a good chunk higher than the Apple M2 on a similar-ish mode; the ~800 MHz clock disparity likely plays no small part. I'd hoped for sub-10W (my dear fanless dream) but alas, another generation perhaps.

These 1T numbers (of admittedly the fastest SKU) are between Lunar Lake and the M2.

Rumor has it that Qualcomm will have a part based on the ARM X925 called the "8 Gen 4s"


It's likely to cost less and compete w/ the Samsung and Mediatek flagships as the "8 Elite" will perform a tier above those and likely be priced accordingly.

Good side: some excellent perf & perf / W comparison data between X925 & Oryon cores!

Curious side: why not sell weaker-bins of the Oryon mobile SoC → cheaper SKUs? X Elite on PC has eight SKUs per its 12C die. Surely some weaker Oryon dies can be binned down. Wouldn't that more cost effective?

Or is the Oryon mobile SoC that pricey that even after binning (e.g., all usable dies exhausted), Qualcomm can't get the per-die price low enough for OEM interest? Would that imply Oryon's production cost >>> X925's licensing and production cost?
 

jdubs03

Senior member
Oct 1, 2013
951
594
136
The GitHub issue, where Jeff has added some prelim. power numbers:


GB6 1T
28W total - 11W idle → 17W idle normalized | 4.3 GHz Oryon

Its 1T power seems a good chunk higher than the Apple M2 on a similar-ish mode; the ~800 MHz clock disparity likely plays no small part. I'd hoped for sub-10W (my dear fanless dream) but alas, another generation perhaps.

These 1T numbers (of admittedly the fastest SKU) are between Lunar Lake and the M2.



Good side: some excellent perf & perf / W comparison data between X925 & Oryon cores!

Curious side: why not sell weaker-bins of the Oryon mobile SoC → cheaper SKUs? X Elite on PC has eight SKUs per its 12C die. Surely some weaker Oryon dies can be binned down. Wouldn't that more cost effective?

Or is the Oryon mobile SoC that pricey that even after binning (e.g., all usable dies exhausted), Qualcomm can't get the per-die price low enough for OEM interest? Would that imply Oryon's production cost >>> X925's licensing and production cost?
CB score of 131 ST at 28W/1227 MT at 99W.
GB score of 3020 ST/15969 MT.

Still going to be weird having their flagship mobile SKU beating their flagship laptop SKU in ST. Just seems backwards; particularly when they’re trying to break in to the laptop space (and supposedly desktop). Granted some devices with the X Elite will have been out for 4-5 months prior to the mobile devices, but still.. odd choice.
 
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FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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CB score of 131 ST at 28W/1227 MT at 99W.
GB score of 3020 ST/15969 MT.
100 watts? Good lord.Curious side: why not sell weaker-bins of the Oryon mobile SoC → cheaper SKUs? X Elite on PC has eight SKUs per its 12C die. Surely some weaker Oryon dies can be binned down. Wouldn't that more cost effective?
Or is the Oryon mobile SoC that pricey that even after binning (e.g., all usable dies exhausted), Qualcomm can't get the per-die price low enough for OEM interest? Would that imply Oryon's production cost >>> X925's licensing and production cost?
I don't think it has anything to do with Oryon.
It simply seems to be the fact that these dies are so massive, and Qualcomm is only willing to reduce the cost of a binned die by X%, which OEMs don't find satisfactory.
 
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FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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Snapdragon X Elite Die Shot (169.6 mm2):
View attachment 108365
This is Hamoa.

Purwa has one less Oryon cluster (-16 mm²) and half the GPU (-12 mm²). Also Purwa has a weaker VPU and no PCIe lanes for dGPU.

So I'd guess Purwa is about 130 mm².

Also isn't it interesting how one Oryon cluster is situated far away from the other two? I think this is proof in the die about what Gerard Williams said at Hot Chips 2024 (Paraphrasing) "There are 2 clusters which are operated in a performant manner, and 1 cluster operated in an efficient manner".
 
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