Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

cebri1 · Sep 29, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
That was @Markfw not @MarkPost

My bad.

SiliconFly · Sep 29, 2024

Nothingness said:
Have we reached the point where we take wccftech seriously? What about waiting for release? Or let's switch this to a "8.4% over 9950x!!!!!!11111" hype train thread. Or even 10% (or even more!) because it's a QS (which is not even proven) so final will go through the roof when released.

Oh pls! No one cares abt wccftech. But the GB6 data point speaks for itself. And QS or final doesn't matter anymore either. A lead is a lead how ever you look at it. That too in MT also. Something I didn't expect considering Zen 5 has SMT. This also shows ARL-S Skymonts are probably more stronger than expected. And please get off the Zen hype train. It's time.

MarkizSchnitzel · Sep 29, 2024

So basically @511, they will converge. Somewhat.

I rather think that FUTURE software performance will be a major impact, instead of backwards compatibility, in consumer space.

Det0x · Sep 29, 2024

Its kinda funny how differently we view these results.. I find them pretty bad myself 🧐
I had atleast expected much better numbers, and when you pair them with this inherited Meteor Lake uncore/memory layout, i could very well understand the rumors about bad gaming performance on Arrow Lake.. (chiphell)

The memory is integrated with a low-voltage version.
The 15th generation is designed with chiplets like AMD, and the arrangement of the large and small cores has changed. The large and small cores are arranged alternately next to each other, and they are no longer grouped into two computing clusters. This will cause a significant increase in the communication delay between the large cores.

At this point i kinda fear lower gaming performance than Intel 14th gen in latency bound titels 🫣(i know this is like swearing in church in this thread)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1838105065586037216

Example of said memory performance: (latency is the key here)

Anyway, over to Arrow Lakes GB numbers

285k

265k

For refrence, some random 9950X numbers.. And i'm not either seeing any hammering here (?)

This years old leak is looking more and more true for every passing day

cannedlake240 · Sep 29, 2024

Intel won't win gaming until they get their own Vcache. Even if the top part beats Zen 5 X3D, AMD still has the more affordable and efficient option

poke01 · Sep 29, 2024

Keep in mind 9950X Geekbench score is boosted by AVX-512.

Arrow lake should have better ST performance

Josh128 · Sep 29, 2024

HXL9550 is saying new Intel boards will only support this upcoming generation.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1840286277029031956

Det0x · Sep 29, 2024

poke01 said:
Keep in mind 9950X Geekbench score is boosted by AVX-512.

Arrow lake should have better ST performance

Could you point out which of these GB6 sub-benches are using AVX-512 ?
(using my own entry since thats the one i have)

cebri1 · Sep 29, 2024

Latest chart from Videocardz

SiliconFly · Sep 29, 2024

Det0x said:
Its kinda funny how differently we view these results.. I find them pretty bad myself 🧐
I had atleast expected much better numbers, and when you pair them with this inherited Meteor Lake uncore/memory layout, i could very well understand the rumors about bad gaming performance on Arrow Lake..
At this point i kinda fear lower gaming performance than Intel 14th gen in latency bound titels 🫣

VideoCards now has an article with better data points.

https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-core-ultra-7-265k-nears-core-ultra-9-285k-in-new-leaked-tests

As for gaming, looks like it gonna take a couple of weeks for the results.

Det0x said:
(i know this is like swearing in church in this thread)

Lets hope it isn't true. Constructive criticism brings balance. Honestly not sure how the mods feel abt it.

cannedlake240 said:
Intel won't win gaming until they get their own Vcache. Even if the top part beats Zen 5 X3D, AMD still has the more affordable and efficient option

Mostly agree. But there are other factors at play too. There is always a possibility, ARL top part might narrow the gap with 9950X3D. Just guessing.

poke01 said:
Keep in mind 9950X Geekbench score is boosted by AVX-512.

Arrow lake should have better ST performance

If true, ARL ST will make quite a difference in day-to-day tasks! But does AVX512 make that much of a difference in GB? Maybe only a little (based on previous comments in this forum).

Josh128 said:
HXL9550 is saying new Intel boards will only support this upcoming generation.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1840286277029031956

Is he talking about LNL or ARL? LNL makes more sense, as it's a single generation product.

Det0x said:
Could you point out which of these GB6 sub-benches are using AVX-512 ?
(using my own entry since thats the one i have)

Iirc, some users in this thread mentioned a while back that AVX512 does offer a bump in GB6 results. But I think it's not that huge (I'm assuming). Probably insignificant. I may be wrong though.

511 · Sep 29, 2024

MarkizSchnitzel said:
So basically @511, they will converge. Somewhat.

Yeah

MarkizSchnitzel said:
I rather think that FUTURE software performance will be a major impact, instead of backwards compatibility, in consumer space.

Backward compatibility will be important imo x86 has 40 years of software Compatibility

One of Apple's Advantage is they simply modify ISA/SW according to their needs they are not as bound as Intel/AMD it allows design simplification

Hulk · Sep 29, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Well, in the grand scheme of things, those are all mostly ES. Now this looks like a QS. And it's killing it...

Intel Core Ultra 7 265K Shows Strong Multi-Core Performance In New Benchmark Leak: 16% Faster Than 14700K, Beats Ryzen 9 9950X & 14900KS Too

Latest benchmarks of Intel's Core Ultra 7 265K "Arrow Lake" CPU have leaked & showcase much better performance, even beating 9950X & 14900KS.

wccftech.com

And it says: "it's 8.4% faster than Ryzen 9 9950X" in multi-threading! And this is just a 265K.

It's pretty much clear now that ARL-S 285K is clearly the leader this gen. Both in ST & MT.

Let's keep in mind that these are leaks. Nevermind leaks, around here most of us don't take reviews too seriously with most of the great reviewers gone. Sadly, with people like Anand not around and benching, we generally base our conclusions on our own testing.

Leaks and rumors are fun but I wouldn't put too much faith in them, that goes for the real low and high scoring ones. There are so many Geekbench scores that just don't make sense due to the lack of accurate system data. I will admit the corroboration among 285K scores adds creedence, but let's wait for reviews so we can discuss on an even (accurate) playing field.

fastandfurious6 · Sep 29, 2024

Josh128 said:
HXL9550 is saying new Intel boards will only support this upcoming generation.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1840286277029031956

Intel desperately needs IV injections of moneybags 💰💰💰

just read they're selling offices and HQs around the world

fastandfurious6 · Sep 29, 2024

Det0x said:
Could you point out which of these GB6 sub-benches are using AVX-512 ?
(using my own entry since thats the one i have)
View attachment 108407

View attachment 108408

only a few use AVX-512, two to three if not mistaken

these numbers are more accurate than videocardz (lol) above

Hitman928 · Sep 29, 2024

Det0x said:
Could you point out which of these GB6 sub-benches are using AVX-512 ?
(using my own entry since thats the one i have)
View attachment 108407

View attachment 108408

Technically there are three: photo library, background blur, and object detection. However, someone on this forum already tested with AVX512 enabled/disabled on Zen4 and found no difference in score between them, so it seems that the AVX2 code path is just as fast for Zen as the AVX512 path. We just had this discussion for like the third time a couple of weeks ago.

I think people are conflating the AVX512 and Apple’s AMX score differences as AMX does provide like a 5% score boost for Apple versus nothing with AVX512 for Zen.

cannedlake240 · Sep 29, 2024

Lol Intel has to backport NVL in some form to 1851 platform if ARL loses in gaming and is the only generation supported by this platform it's over for them in the desktop market

Nothingness · Sep 29, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Oh pls! No one cares abt wccftech. But the GB6 data point speaks for itself. And QS or final doesn't matter anymore either. A lead is a lead how ever you look at it. That too in MT also. Something I didn't expect considering Zen 5 has SMT. This also shows ARL-S Skymonts are probably more stronger than expected.

A single result from an unknown source means very little. Concluding it's 8.4% better from that single source is just plain ridiculous.

And please get off the Zen hype train. It's time.

I'm not the one making bold claims. I'm cautious and I never ride these trains.

I'm not saying 285k won't spank 9950x, I say concluding at this point is premature. We'll know better in a few weeks and from more sources.

Nothingness · Sep 29, 2024

Hitman928 said:
Technically there are three: photo library, background blur, and object detection. However, someone on this forum already tested with AVX512 enabled/disabled on Zen4 and found no different in score between them, so it seems that the AVX2 code path is just as fast for Zen as the AVX512 path. We just had this discussion for like the third time a couple of weeks ago.

I think people are getting conflating the AVX512 and Apple’s AMX score differences as AMX does provide like a 5% score boost for Apple versus nothing with AVX512 for Zen.

Agreed. It would be interesting to see this experiment done with desktop Zen5.

fastandfurious6 · Sep 29, 2024

cebri1 said:
this thread is thrash (like the other Intel threads) thanks to the the usual suspects. I think wccfftech has higher standards than most posters here.

that's so true

I'm really curious what compels someone to become such a suspect for Intel......

Hitman928 · Sep 29, 2024

Nothingness said:
A single result from an unknown source means very little. Concluding it's 8.4% better from that single source is just plain ridiculous.

I'm not the one making bold claims. I'm cautious and I never ride these trains.

I'm not saying 285k won't spank 9950x, I say concluding at this point is premature. We'll know better in a few weeks and from more sources.

From what I’ve seen so far, it looks like ARL will catch back up to Zen 5 in ST but not surpass it. In other words, they’ll be roughly equal in ST performance with one or the other having a slight lead across multiple individual benchmarks and basically tied in things like GB or Spec. I think ARL will probably have a lead in MT at each tier thanks either to the core count lead (mostly at the low to mid end) and the higher power limits. Obviously we need to see final review numbers though.

Gaming is the big question mark for me. I don’t see ARL being able to match Zen 5x3d, but versus vanilla Zen 5 I have no idea. My guess, and it’s really just a guess, is that gaming will not be ARL’s strength, but we’ll just have to wait and see.

AcrosTinus · Sep 29, 2024

My prediction for the gaming capabilities:
Zen4=Zen5<AlderLake<RaptorLake<Zen4X3D<ArrowLake<=Zen5X3D

Mind you, none of these crushes the other, every platform has its pro and cons and games well for the next decade. I'm just a storage and a memory nerd as well, here Intel delivers the higher performing memory controller and lower latency to my Optane P5801x and P4800x SSDs, so Intel it is.

Josh128 · Sep 29, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Is he talking about LNL or ARL? LNL makes more sense, as it's a single generation product.

Iirc, some users in this thread mentioned a while back that AVX512 does offer a bump in GB6 results. But I think it's not that huge (I'm assuming). Probably insignificant. I may be wrong though.

ARL. Intel doesnt sell motherboards for mobile products.

AVX 512 adds an insignificant amount to GB6 scores for Zen 5.

AcrosTinus · Sep 29, 2024

Hitman928 said:
From what I’ve seen so far, it looks like ARL will catch back up to Zen 5 in ST but not surpass it. In other words, they’ll be roughly equal in ST performance with one or the other having a slight lead across multiple individual benchmarks and basically tied in things like GB or Spec. I think ARL will probably have a lead in MT at each tier thanks either to the core count lead (mostly at the low to mid end) and the higher power limits. Obviously we need to see final review numbers though.

Gaming is the big question mark for me. I don’t see ARL being able to match Zen 5x3d, but versus vanilla Zen 5 I have no idea. My guess, and it’s really just a guess, is that gaming will not be ARL’s strength, but we’ll just have to wait and see.

Vanilla Zen5 is essentially Zen4 with a 5% gain. That is solidly behind RaptorLake (in gaming) and Intel has never released a CPU generation that regressed in gaming, so it is pretty clear that ArrowLake will beat Zen5 without 3D cache and my crystal ball says lose by 5% to the 3D Cache versions and equal with CUDIMM.

AcrosTinus · Sep 29, 2024

Josh128 said:
ARL. Intel doesnt sell motherboards for mobile products.

AVX 512 adds an insignificant amount to GB6 scores for Zen 5.

That is true, with the current data available, Intel would have the higher general performance but the moment AVX512 comes into play in consumer spaces AMD might gain a significant performance advantage. By that point though, we might be so far into the future that AVX10.2 enabled cores are already out and it does not matter.

Hitman928 · Sep 29, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
Vanilla Zen5 is essentially Zen4 with a 5% gain. That is solidly behind RaptorLake and Intel has never released a CPU generation that regressed in gaming, so it is pretty clear that ArrowLake with beat Zen5 without 3D cache.

You could very well be right, but with the latest Windows patches and bios update, Zen 5 very nearly caught up to RPL. For ARL, gaming loads are very branchy with larger data sets that spill out of typical CPU cache sizes regularly which puts a lot of pressure on the memory to provide the data with as low of latency as possible. From LNL testing, the BPU isn’t really improved over previous generations and early ARL leaks show a regression in memory latency. That’s why I’m not really sure ARL will be an improvement over RPL and be able to have a convincing lead over Zen 5. Again, this is just all speculation based upon what I’ve seen so far, but I could very well be wrong.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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