Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

coercitiv · Oct 8, 2024

Kepler_L2 said:
Oh please let's not have another month of "wait for new BIOS/power limit/windows update".

Nah, this time we're going straight for "wait for CAMM2".

511 · Oct 8, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
The worst ending for Intel has happened, the reviewer mob has forced them to pre nerf their chips. Add to it the fiasco with Raptor Lake and the enforced power limits on a overclocker + unlocked chip and we get this bad ending.... pathetic.

A K unlocked chip that will be reviewed as if it has no overclocking and the "K" is just a marketing artifact. It is sadly over....

If there is some OC potential to exceed the 14900K, how many of these AMD curve optimizer tuning, command line running and windows reinstalling folks will do the same for Intel, the marketing machine has worked, I'm saddened to know that a focused and timed mob can indeed push a company towards the wrong path.

A core i9 should be the most unleashed chip, with the highest power consumption and performance, the lower SKUs are for everything else. It should be a halo product like the RTX4090, no one complains about the power consumption under load, the same will be the case for the 5090.

The only way for Intel to survive now is to embrace the power consumption, I don't care about that on a high performance desktop BUT they also must deliver a multi generational leap in ST and MT performance to warrant that power draw, in essence they need a RTX-X090 class product with performance so high, no serious person will talk about the power draw.

Like this though, I'm just disappointed and will return in maybe 4 years to see if there is any positive movement.

Conclusion: Stagnation since Alder Lake

Stagnation since Raptor Lake*

MS_AT · Oct 8, 2024

511 said:
The chart is with APO enabled so without APO it's gonna tank hard

Sorry, what is APO? I am getting lost in all those acronyms...

511 · Oct 8, 2024

Canned Arrow lake refresh makes sense

511 · Oct 8, 2024

MS_AT said:
Sorry, what is APO? I am getting lost in all those acronyms...

Intel® Application Optimization Overview

Explains Intel® Application Optimization for gaming optimization.

www.intel.com

Basically a way to increase FPS in games

coercitiv · Oct 8, 2024

MS_AT said:
Sorry, what is APO? I am getting lost in all those acronyms...

Software gaming optimization, they're tuning E core utilization (example - in some games disabling a number of E cores allows the rest to make better use of the shared L2, which lowers L3 hits, which allows better L3 utilization for P cores, and you can see where this is going)

Optimizations are "manual" for each title though, so the software has limited real-world support.

Det0x · Oct 8, 2024

coercitiv said:
View attachment 108882

If this is the best Intel can show in their own benchmarks, the 285k is DOA for gamers

AcrosTinus · Oct 8, 2024

Kocicak said:
https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-admits-core-ultra-9-285k-will-be-slower-than-i9-14900k-in-gaming#disqus_thread

Increasing energy efficiency is great, but the performance itself disappointing.

But what if all these performance numbers are for the conservative default power settings??? It could increase considerably with the 250W power setting.

That might be true but it is all about mindshare right now. Intel might have the higher performing chip at 250 to 300W again but who will test this unlocked chip in that conditions.

The likes of hardware unboxed will put it against AMD, leave the locks in place, throw in some in spec RAM and call the 7800X3D a winner, I can see the headline.

Any benefit this chip has, be it in hardware encoding, chipset, tuning will be smoothed over for the gaming folks. The moment Intel does well, it will be countered with "at an increased power draw, at a higher cost, a the cost of a new platform".

Sadly there is no winning, going for power draw even though you had to impress people with performance FIRST, is intel's downfall.
Most people I know game on an i5 or Ryzen 7 the upper chips should be halo products.

This all started with idiots reviewing the 14900K, a huge chip against a 7800x3D a lower tier chip with half its guts missing. They call it faster but forget to add in the constraint of "just in a particular task". Had they used a overclocked i5 14600K for comparison which would be maybe 3 to 5% slower than the i9, the power draw nonsense would not have happened... It would be more fair, the tradeoff between higher MT and gaming performance against cost would be on Intel's side with older Mainboards and even DDR4 but no one bothered to do this but niche channels...

The media machine worked....

coercitiv · Oct 8, 2024

Det0x said:
If this is the best Intel can show in their own benchmarks, the 285k is DOA for gamers

Pretty much, yes. The only good news is Ultra 7 and Ultra 5 will fare a bit better versus their respective previous gen counterparts because there's less or no frequency regression. Still a tough sell.

511 · Oct 8, 2024

RPL Intel 7 making Zen4/Zen5/ARL on N4/N3B look weak in ST how the hell did we get here P core team needs to deliver something big like 30-40% with NVL or it's meh

adroc_thurston · Oct 8, 2024

511 said:
RPL Intel 7 making Zen4/Zen5/ARL on N4/N3B look weak in ST

One little detail: it goes kaboom.
Hope that helps!

coercitiv · Oct 8, 2024

511 said:
RPL Intel 7 making Zen4/Zen5/ARL on N4/N3B look weak in ST how the hell did we get here

We got here by pushing RPL to the point of failure.

511 · Oct 8, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
One little detail: it goes kaboom.
Hope that helps!

Let us wait for the 0x12B fix but I don't think it was nodes fault more like a design/insanse settings issue

AcrosTinus · Oct 8, 2024

511 said:
RPL Intel 7 making Zen4/Zen5/ARL on N4/N3B look weak in ST how the hell did we get here P core team needs to deliver something big like 30-40% with ARL or it's meh

They have to go big or go home, Arrow Lake might break their arms, the next Alder Lake+++ will break their neck

igor_kavinski · Oct 8, 2024

coercitiv said:
Therefore anyone who's already on RPL has very little incentives to upgrade. I expect the prices won't help either.

But if suddenly RPL prices mysteriously start seeing a downward trend, people may panic and jump ship to either Ryzen or ARL. We just need one more security related performance degrading patch or an advisory from Intel saying that HT must be turned off on Raptor Lake to protect your digital life while on internet

511 · Oct 8, 2024

They will definitely reduce RPL price after Fiasco if RPL hadn't happened it would not have been this good 🤣

igor_kavinski · Oct 8, 2024

Also, we don't know how well ARL overclocks yet. The lower power should allow eeking out at least 200 MHz extra on good samples. That's not a nothing.

Kocicak · Oct 8, 2024

I expect the reviews to have the new CPUs tested in both default and performance settings.

If intel chose to show just one power setting in their presentation, it should be the default setting.

tsamolotoff · Oct 8, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Also, we don't know how well ARL overclocks yet. The lower power should allow eeking out at least 200 MHz extra on good samples. That's not a nothing.

Considering that they've got rid of HT to eke out more Mhz in ST and MT this is not very likely. Probably the same OC potential as with AMDs offering on TSMC processes

511 · Oct 8, 2024

I don't think N3B can compete with 6Ghz clocking Intel 7 that's something no one can do outside of Intel Fabs Ghz node skymont is the true chad basically more IPC than Zen 5+ Arl combined and still has few percent left

CouncilorIrissa · Oct 8, 2024

I've said this before, but this outcome shouldn’t be a surprise. RPL was essentially a swan song of Intel's approach to desktop CPUs: a monolithic chip that does not suffer from penalties typical to disaggregated architectures (higher mem and C2C latencies), setup with no care for power consumption on a node that clocks sky high like no other, pushed to the absolute limits and beyond of its silicon. It’s a perfect setup for gaming.

poke01 · Oct 8, 2024

511 said:
I don't think N3B can compete with 6Ghz clocking Intel 7 that's something no one can do outside of Intel Fabs Ghz node skymont is the true chad basically more IPC than Zen 5+ Arl combined and still has few percent left

Its a real funny sort of situation be in, after finally moving to a new node, Intel got stuck with N3B the worst 3nm node from TSMC. If it was N3E, it would allowed them to clock higher.

CouncilorIrissa · Oct 8, 2024

poke01 said:
Its a real funny sort of situation be in, after finally moving to a new node, Intel got stuck with N3B the worst 3nm node from TSMC. If it was N3E, it would allowed them to clock higher.

I don't think so, N3E's entire shtick is that it's cheaper and yields better.

majord · Oct 8, 2024

So Zen 5% out and "ARL - 2% " in ?

511 · Oct 8, 2024

majord said:
So Zen 5% out and "ARL - 2% " in ?

Zen 5% = Arl -2%

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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