Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

cannedlake240 · Oct 8, 2024

Saylick said:
I can see how this plays out already...

View attachment 108918

Nah NVL will have both, specially if it uses N2P and increases core count. If the rumors of a stacked cache version are true, then they'll finally have a chance against Zen X3D, after 5 years of domination

FlameTail · Oct 8, 2024

cannedlake240 said:
Nah NVL will have both, specially if it uses N2P and increases core count. If the rumors of a stacked cache version are true, then they'll finally have a chance against Zen X3D, after 5 years of domination

NVL = N2P ?

Why not A16, which goes into mass production and has BSPDN (which N2P does not)?

Saylick · Oct 8, 2024

gaav87 said:
Not looking good.

View attachment 108921
View attachment 108920

Audiophile experience...? I presume this is machine translated?

H433x0n · Oct 8, 2024

Both Intel and AMD making a really strong case for me buying the M4 MBP for work related tasks and keeping my Raptor Lake system for gaming.

511 · Oct 8, 2024

cannedlake240 said:
Nah NVL will have both, specially if it uses N2P and increases core count. If the rumors of a stacked cache version are true, then they'll finally have a chance against Zen X3D, after 5 years of domination

It uses 18AP Intel is coming back home from TSMC N3

cannedlake240 · Oct 8, 2024

FlameTail said:
NVL = N2P ?

Why not A16, which goes into mass production and has BSPDN (which N2P does not)?
View attachment 108922

A16 hvm is 2026 2H though. NVL ideally should've been fully 18A-P, but there are rumors suggesting the high end will still be outsourced. Nothing definitive on process used yet... Could be dual sourced from N2 and 18A-P

Joe NYC · Oct 8, 2024

H433x0n said:
Both Intel and AMD making a really strong case for me buying the M4 MBP for work related tasks and keeping my Raptor Lake system for gaming.

Why would you be making that decision about buying MBP before the first x86 based MBP competitor is released (Strix Halo)?

gdansk · Oct 8, 2024

Joe NYC said:
Why would you be making that decision about buying MBP before the first x86 based MBP competitor is released (Strix Halo)?

Because we already know M4 is better in almost every way outside of gaming and 512 bit vector operations?

coercitiv · Oct 8, 2024

Joe NYC said:
Why would you be making that decision about buying MBP before the first x86 based MBP competitor is released (Strix Halo)?

Probably because his issue is with the P core performance/efficiency, which he finds lacking from both companies. Strix Halo will not change that (even if it improves a bit).

Wolverine2349 · Oct 8, 2024

Joe NYC said:
Based on Lunar Lake info that was released by Intel at the time (whatever one might think about it).

That Arrow Lake gains vs. Raptor Lake will be smaller than Lunar Lake vs. Meteor Lake gains.

Some people expected same or bigger gains from Arrow Lake.

In gaming or all workloads or both?

If the gains are small in gaming but on par, its ok. Raptor Lake can trade blows with 7800X3D and beasts it in heavily threaded games when tuned right. Pity it has stability issues.

If Arrow Lake on par with 14th Gen in gaming with much lower power across it will be fine.

Joe NYC · Oct 8, 2024

gdansk said:
Because we already know M4 is better in almost every way outside of gaming and 512 bit vector operations?

Switching from Windows to MacOS is not a trivial change. Neither is loss of ability to run software written for Windows.

Wolverine2349 · Oct 8, 2024

gdansk said:
Because we already know M4 is better in almost every way outside of gaming and 512 bit vector operations?

Too bad its not X86 and has no where near the software library to run natively on it.

If it were X86 game over.

But no thank you emulation which has massive performance hit not running software natively at hardware level. Ouch.

gdansk · Oct 8, 2024

Joe NYC said:
Switching from Windows to MacOS is not a trivial change. Neither is loss of ability to run software written for Windows.

Wolverine2349 said:
Too bad its not X86 and has no where near the software library to run natively on it.

If it were X86 game over.

But no thank you emulation which has massive performance hit not running software natively at hardware level. Ouch.

It's a different issue. Presumably someone looking at a Mac is already aware the programs they need work. It doesn't work for you but it does work for me.

Joe NYC · Oct 8, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
In gaming or all workloads or both?

If the gains are small in gaming but on par, its ok. Raptor Lake can trade blows with 7800X3D and beasts it in heavily threaded games when tuned right. Pity it has stability issues.

If Arrow Lake on par with 14th Gen in gaming with much lower power across it will be fine.

Primarily in gaming, which tends to be the most memory latency sensitive.

Raptor Lake has better memory latency, which is how it can beat regular Zen 4, but Zen4 x3d hides the memory latency disadvantage of Zen 4 and then some. Which is how it come out on top in gaming.

Apparently, there is another issue (reading on Twitter) that Arrow Lake reduced ring bus speed. High ring bus speed is what caused Raptor Lakes instability and silicon degradation... We will see how much impact that has, vs. memory latency alone.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1843637230361030837

inquiss · Oct 8, 2024

coercitiv said:
Probably because his issue is with the P core performance/efficiency, which he finds lacking from both companies. Strix Halo will not change that (even if it improves a bit).

Why not? It has some cool power saving features and some cool performance enhancing features.

511 · Oct 8, 2024

Mac/iOS don't care about comparability at all what runs today may not run tommorow they have the most flexible CPU Design Choices just cut the thing and make it

Joe NYC · Oct 8, 2024

coercitiv said:
Probably because his issue is with the P core performance/efficiency, which he finds lacking from both companies. Strix Halo will not change that (even if it improves a bit).

Well, Strix Halo will have not 4 (like Strix Point or Lunar Lake), not 8 (like Arrow Lake), but up to 16 performance cores, and it also has HT.

So, for anyone seeking more P core performance, it would be plain dumb not to wait for the info on the strongest contender and make that sort of jump blind.

coercitiv · Oct 8, 2024

inquiss said:
Why not? It has some cool power saving features and some cool performance enhancing features.

Joe NYC said:
Well, Strix Halo will have not 4 (like Strix Point or Lunar Lake), not 8 (like Arrow Lake), but up to 16 performance cores, and it also has HT.

So, for anyone seeking more P core performance, it would be plain dumb not to wait for the info on the strongest contender and make that sort of jump blind.

I think we all know better than to discuss Strix Halo vs. M3/M4 in the Intel ARL thread. @H433x0n made a remark, folks can agree or not with his take. If you want tot discuss it further... great place to start would be a dedicated thread for Strix Halo.

Doug S · Oct 8, 2024

Joe NYC said:
Switching from Windows to MacOS is not a trivial change. Neither is loss of ability to run software written for Windows.

You can run ARM Windows as a VM in Parallels, and Windows handles the x86->ARM translation. Unless the software you need to run on Windows is really performance sensitive, the translation overhead won't even be noticeable. Obviously this is a bad solution if your primary use for a laptop is running stuff that's only available on Windows, but if you have light/occasional needs for Windows only software a Mac would be fine.

There is no "loss of ability to run software written for Windows".

Saylick · Oct 8, 2024

Saylick said:
I can see how this plays out already...

View attachment 108918

Looks like it's starting already.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1843673392534434076

https://twitter.com/x/status/1843606211112939711

poke01 · Oct 8, 2024

Saylick said:
Looks like it's starting already.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1843673392534434076

https://twitter.com/x/status/1843606211112939711

lol, that person is worse than Apple fanatics. I would wait for reviews before believing Intel marketing. I don’t care how “accurate” their slides are. It’s still marketing.

also I doubt the PL2 of the 285K is 177 watts. It will go higher.

adroc_thurston · Oct 8, 2024

poke01 said:
also I doubt the PL2 of the 285K is 177 watts

It's 250W. Right in the slideware too.

Det0x · Oct 8, 2024

According to Hassan from wccftech, all the slides leaked today were done at 250w powerlimit

adroc_thurston · Oct 8, 2024

Det0x said:
According to Hassan from wccftech, all the slides leaked today were done at 250w powerlimit

There's a specsheet slide for all SKUs launched (they're all K-unlocked). It's 250W for i7/i9 and less for i5.

poke01 · Oct 8, 2024

511 said:
Mac/iOS don't care about comparability at all what runs today may not run tommorow they have the most flexible CPU Design Choices just cut the thing and make it

do you have proof of this happening in the last 4 years? I mean if Apple didn’t care about compatibility they would have never supported x86 translation layer in their arm64 version of macOS. They even expanded support to include AVX2 extensions and gave Linux VMs the ability to use this translation layer. Docker also works with x86 containers, something the X Elite can’t do yet.

but yeah they also drop support for 32bit apps which sucks. That’s why it’s good to have a MacBook as a backup. Windows will be king always due to the software backlog tho especially for gamers and engineering.

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