Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E012 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4TSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15



Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



 

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dangerman1337

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I agree. P-core for snappy response and complex tasks. E-core for brute force of heavy multi-threaded work. They were separated to get the best of both worlds. Combining both into just one core is likely to get the worst of both worlds.
Wonder if we'll see seperate P Core and E Core chiplets with future architectures, would be nice to see P Core chiplet with stacked (Adamantine L4) Cache for example.
 

H433x0n

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so nothing has changed in regards to power consumption. ARL is a power dog just as RPL is.

Intel hasn't learned?
The PL2 doesn’t say anything about efficiency.

If the 285K has equal to or better nT efficiency compared to the 9950X at 125W and 175W but has a higher PL2, does this make it less efficient?
 

MarkPost

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Mar 1, 2017
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Truth is this is a mobile chip ported to desktop, and here they need to lose all that efficiency to barely been a competitor in perfomance with top of the line Zen 5. This is just a replay of zen 4 and RPL: less perfomance, more power dog.
 
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H433x0n

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Truth is this is a mobile chip ported to desktop, and here they need to lose all that efficiency to barely been a competitor in perfomance with top of the line Zen 5. This is just a replay of zen 4 and RPL.
You’re predicting Zen 5 to be 15-20% more efficient than ARL? Guess we’ll find out on the 24th.

What if ARL is more efficient? Does that mean we can finally move on from everybody pretending their desktop PC is a server rack with strict TCO requirements?
 

Det0x

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Sep 11, 2014
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The PL2 doesn’t say anything about efficiency.

If the 285K has equal to or better nT efficiency compared to the 9950X at 125W and 175W but has a higher PL2, does this make it less efficient?
Do you think the 285k will be able to match ~43.5k points in Cinebench MT @ ~160w PPT ?
 
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Det0x

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Your overclocked and/or undervolted system isn’t the benchmark. I’m talking about out of the box settings with tests done by mainstream reviewers.
K this is 100% stock system with just ecomode set to 135w PPT target = ~35.5k points
Further down the powerlimit i can start believing Arrow Lake coming out ahead, seeing as it inherit some parts (uncore) from Meteor Lake
 
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OneEng2

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With PBO the 9950X for sure outmatch the 14900K/KS by 10% and by 7-8% at stock, wich is not the case at all in those pics, so not only it s not ocked but likely that all intel chips are.

I was thinking the same thing. After the bios fix and windows scheduling fix for Zen 5, all the numbers I have seen for 9950X are quite favorable over 14900K. It seems like Intel's slides on Arrow Lake have been slanted to show Arrow Lake in a very good light. My only thought on this is that they appear to have done so to a bit of an extreme so when the real benchmark results come out, people will be more negative than they would have been (just pull the band aid off and get it over with).
so nothing has changed in regards to power consumption. ARL is a power dog just as RPL is.

Intel hasn't learned?
Well, certainly Lunar Lake has very good power characteristics. It just doesn't appear to scale into the desktop with regards to that efficiency for some reason.
Truth is this is a mobile chip ported to desktop, and here they need to lose all that efficiency to barely been a competitor in perfomance with top of the line Zen 5. This is just a replay of zen 4 and RPL: less perfomance, more power dog.
Possibly, but it seems like it misses the mark in desktop. I am still hopeful for Intel in the laptop and future server market (as I have said, it looks like Granite Rapids is still woefully behind Turin for this cycle, but it doesn't use Lion Cove or Skymont IIRC).
You’re predicting Zen 5 to be 15-20% more efficient than ARL? Guess we’ll find out on the 24th.

What if ARL is more efficient? Does that mean we can finally move on from everybody pretending their desktop PC is a server rack with strict TCO requirements?
Well, from the Granite Rapids vs Turin benchmarks, I am guessing that Granite Rapids is either thermally limited and/or bandwidth limited as Redwood Cove core is nearly equal to Zen 5 in IPC, yet in a 128 core to 128core comparison, Turin beats it badly. In fact, many times the 64 core Turin beats the 128 core Granit Rapids.

It smells a lot like Intel NEEDS a much better performance per watt design in order to compete in the data center ...... where all the growth and money is.

If the new design gives Intel a great laptop processor in both thin and light and full size laptops, AND provides a competitive future core design the brings them to performance parity with AMD in the data center market, then I think they are on the right path.

The desktop market isn't very important any more. Shoot, I feel like a dinosaur even having 2 of them in my house still .

I also wonder if AMD's propensity to stick with a socket for 3 generations will help it in the server market. I know this is one of the reasons I keep doing AMD builds at home is that they last me a very long time. In the server, they can minimize their validation and easily update validated systems with just a processor update. Seems like a pretty good strategy to me.
 
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H433x0n

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Well, from the Granite Rapids vs Turin benchmarks, I am guessing that Granite Rapids is either thermally limited and/or bandwidth limited as Redwood Cove core is nearly equal to Zen 5 in IPC, yet in a 128 core to 128core comparison, Turin beats it badly. In fact, many times the 64 core Turin beats the 128 core Granit Rapids.

It smells a lot like Intel NEEDS a much better performance per watt design in order to compete in the data center ...... where all the growth and money is.
At the moment, the Turin v GNR comparison is incomplete since GNR was launched half baked.

If you compare 1P vs 1P for the top end SKUs, so 128 cores against 128 cores Turin comes out ahead by 18%. This is with quite a few bugged benchmarks for GNR where it gets handedly outperformed by SPR & EMR and is at the bottom of the charts. If I had to guess, 6 months from now it’ll probably end up with Turin up by 15% at iso power consumption. That’s still a loss, but it’s not as lopsided like it appears now.
 
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alcoholbob

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Truth is this is a mobile chip ported to desktop, and here they need to lose all that efficiency to barely been a competitor in perfomance with top of the line Zen 5. This is just a replay of zen 4 and RPL: less perfomance, more power dog.

One major difference is with Raptor Lake, DDR5 8000 was already available since 2022, so you could justify going RPL as it had competitive gaming performance against 7800X3D, while maintaining the top of the line multicore performance.

Right now Arrow Lake's only saving grace to make it stand out is a product that doesn't exist yet--RAM in excess of 10,000 MHz.
 
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Hulk

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Oct 9, 1999
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Remember 9% for Lion Cove is combined Int/FP, while Skymont is 32%/72% in Int and FP respectively.

Assuming 65/35% split like in Geekbench, that'll result in an average of 46% gains.

Now tell me in what world would a 32% Int, 72% FP gain even against the 12th Gen Gracemont would result in Lion Cove being 20-30% faster per clock over Skymont?

If you take Raptormont figure, that's 7.2% and 3.5% lead in Int/FP. If it's over Gracemont it's 1% and 3% behind. So with a meagre 9% gain, Lion Cove is as low as 2.9% faster over Skymont.

Lunarlake presentations said Skymont on ring will outperform Raptor Cove by 2% in both SpecInt and FP.

Skymont straight up doubles the number of FP units, so unlike the new instructions which take eons for software to adopt, it'll benefit all the applications dating back to the Pentium 4 era immediately.

In many applications, Skymont has straight up better FP throughput as it has twice the amount of FP units compared to Raptor Cove.

I certainly prefer this approach over the P core teams' almost Elitist approach of shutting down competition by forcing them to adopt new ISA, and for the entire world to cater and recompile for them.
I have gone over the Intel provided CB R24 data in some detail and here is what I have found. Please let me know where I've lost the trail.

Based on my testing of my 14900K in CB R24 MT, Raptor Cove does about 21.2 points/GHz (no HT), 27.8 points/GHz (with HT) and Gracemont about 12.8 in MT.

Using these numbers, a 14900K at stock 5.6/4.4 speeds from Intel Ark would score 2147 points.

Intel claims Arrow Lake is 18% faster or would score about 2525. Stock Arrow Lake speeds are 5.5/4.6 as viewed in Intel Ark.

Since the P cores are similar architectures we'll start with the +9% for Lion Cove over Raptor Cove, using the non HT Raptor 21.2 points/GHz and increase it to 23.1.

So, assuming +9% IPC ST increase for Lion Cove compared to Raptor Cove ST (Raptor Cove ST IPC derived from 8P only run without HT, not ST run, they are different, ST run is generally a bit higher than score obtained by taking MT score most likely due to multithreading overhead), then Skymont would need a 60% IPC increase in CB R23 vs Raptor Lake Gracemont or an increase from 12.8 points/GHz to 20.5 points/GHz, or in other words 3.5% less IPC than Raptor Cove.

Looking at ST scores, Intel claims 8% better for Lion Cove. Now we're looking at 6GHz for Raptor Cove and 5.7GHz for Lion Cove. This would require a 13.5% IPC increase for Lion Cove over Raptor Cove and the Lion Cove score would be about 146.

So, let's review.

According to Intel, looking at Cinebench R24 MT:
Lion Cove will have a 9% increase in MT score when you look at Raptor Cove without HT on vs Lion Cove.
Skymont will have a 60% increase in IPC over Gracemont or be 3.5% below Raptor Cove IPC.

For Cinebench R24 ST:
To achieve the Intel claimed 8% increase in score Lion Cove will need an IPC increase of 13.5% over Raptor Cove.

According to this data, Arrow Lake at 5.5/4.6 should score 146/2525 in Cinebench R24 ST, MT, respectively.

So if these numbers (Intel's claims) turn out to be true then Arrow Lake will be a good CB R24 performer mainly due to the astounding uptick in IPC of Skymont. I did not expect to see +60%. That's Conroe territory

One more thing I forgot to mention. In CB R24 if you compare the MT IPC performance of Lion Cove vs. Raptor Cove without HT, Lion Cove is only better by 13%. If you take the clockspeed deficit into account Lion Cove is better by 35%. Skymont looks to be formidable in FP.

It may be time for Intel to start considering a "workstation" version of Arrow Lake that is 6+24. That would be quite the MT powerhouse especially if they can creep up the clock on Skymont to ~5GHz without dramatically increasing the area.

One final, final thing. With RPL the P/E split for compute with CB 2024 MT was 58%/42%, now with ARL it looks to be 40%/60%. The P's and E's have reversed with Skymont carrying more of the compute load.
 
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Hitman928

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One major difference is with Raptor Lake, DDR5 8000 was already available since 2022, so you could justify going RPL as it had competitive gaming performance against 7800X3D, while maintaining the top of the line multicore performance.

Right now Arrow Lake's only saving grace to make it stand out is a product that doesn't exist yet--RAM in excess of 10,000 MHz.

Memory overclocking on RPL gets you basically nothing past ~DDR5 7000. Going from 6000 MT/s to 7400 MT/s gets the 13900k a whopping 1.5% gaming performance increase.

 
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OneEng2

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At the moment, the Turin v GNR comparison is incomplete since GNR was launched half baked.

If you compare 1P vs 1P for the top end SKUs, so 128 cores against 128 cores Turin comes out ahead by 18%. This is with quite a few bugged benchmarks for GNR where it gets handedly outperformed by SPR & EMR and is at the bottom of the charts. If I had to guess, 6 months from now it’ll probably end up with Turin up by 15% at iso power consumption. That’s still a loss, but it’s not as lopsided like it appears now.
Half baked how?

GNR and Turin are both out very recently, so as much tweaking you expect to see GNR get, it only seems fair to assume that Turin will be improving at the same rate as well don't you think?

If I compare the lot of those benchmarks on Tom's it looks like GNR is getting trounced very badly by Turin. Not sure where you are getting the 18%. Sure, there are a couple of the benchmarks where GNR wins, but only 1 where it wins convincingly and only a couple others where it wins at all. Where it loses, it mostly loses by a good amount (more than 18%) and many times loses by double.

There were a few benchmarks that were confusing though where the Turnin 64c surpassed the Turin 128c by a good margin. Not sure how that all works and makes sense.

Now, I'm not sure which of these benchmarks are the most important for each type of data center application, but I am sure that it looks like the vast majority of data center workloads will be better served by Turin.
 

DavidC1

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Dec 29, 2023
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Half baked how?

GNR and Turin are both out very recently, so as much tweaking you expect to see GNR get, it only seems fair to assume that Turin will be improving at the same rate as well don't you think?
He already told you that in 1 socket comparisons Turin is only 18% ahead, and that includes benchmarks where Granite Rapids performs really bad, as in behind Sapphire Rapids bad. Turin does not have such issues, or nearly as bad, so what do you think will improve more? Turin that's working or Granite Rapids that's not working at all in few workloads?

Is this normal? Where 1P Sierra Forest and Sapphire Rapids is outperforming 2P Granite Rapids? Where Sierra and Sapphire improves in performance with 2 sockets but Granite loses more than 80%?


The 2P Geomean score will improve by 10% if NAMD is excluded. One benchmark underperforming is dragging the score down by that much.

Now let's chalk that up to platform maturity because a 128 core Intel 3 Redwood Cove underperforming 56 core Intel 7 Golden Cove is terrible. And NAMD is not the only benchmark.
 
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H433x0n

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Half baked how?

GNR and Turin are both out very recently, so as much tweaking you expect to see GNR get, it only seems fair to assume that Turin will be improving at the same rate as well don't you think?

If I compare the lot of those benchmarks on Tom's it looks like GNR is getting trounced very badly by Turin. Not sure where you are getting the 18%. Sure, there are a couple of the benchmarks where GNR wins, but only 1 where it wins convincingly and only a couple others where it wins at all. Where it loses, it mostly loses by a good amount (more than 18%) and many times loses by double.

There were a few benchmarks that were confusing though where the Turnin 64c surpassed the Turin 128c by a good margin. Not sure how that all works and makes sense.

Now, I'm not sure which of these benchmarks are the most important for each type of data center application, but I am sure that it looks like the vast majority of data center workloads will be better served by Turin.
I wouldn’t use Tom’s Hardware for server benchmarks.

I’m referencing Phoronix’s data. When I say half baked, I’m not talking about tweaking stuff for small performance increases. There’s some of these workloads where GNR is only getting a tiny fraction of the performance of Turin and performing significantly worse than their last generation Xeon (i.e. broken, not just poorly optimized).
 

DavidC1

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Dec 29, 2023
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I wouldn’t use Tom’s Hardware for server benchmarks.

I’m referencing Phoronix’s data. When I say half baked, I’m not talking about tweaking stuff for small performance increases. There’s some of these workloads where GNR is only getting a tiny fraction of the performance of Turin and performing significantly worse than their last generation Xeon (i.e. broken, not just poorly optimized).
GNR is underperforming in Tomshardware review too. Behind Emerald Rapids in most of their tests. Strange they don't mention this.
 
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