Discussion Future ARM Cortex + Neoverse µArchs Discussion

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jdubs03

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2013
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Even in scalar perf X925 is still pretty competitive in raw int IPC, if not in perf/watt.
Just wanted to address this and it was kind of fun to do:

So indeed it's decently close. Which is why I'm so impressed with the uplift, particularly for a vanilla core.
Keep in mind that the max MTK9400 score is significantly higher than the general range of values (mostly in the low 2800 - low 2900 range). The A18 Pro here is near the max, but it seems this latest iOS 18.1.5 Beta has brought the values back to what they were expected to be (many values in the high 3400s - 3500s).
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Full list:​

2024 Architecture Extensions​

Features introduced in 2024.
FeatureTitle
FEAT_PMUv3_EXTPMNReserving PMU event counters for external agents
FEAT_SPEv1p5Statistical Profiling Extension version 1.5
FEAT_SPE_EXCSPE Profiling exception extension
FEAT_SPE_nVMStatistical Profiling physical addressing mode extension
FEAT_TRBEv1p1Trace Buffer Extension version 1.1
FEAT_TRBE_EXCTrace Buffer Profiling exception extension
FEAT_PoPSPoint of Physical Storage
FEAT_SME2p2Scalable Matrix Extension version 2.2
FEAT_CMPBRCompare and Branch instructions
FEAT_SSVE_AESStreaming SVE Mode Advanced Encryption Standard and 128-bit polynomial multiply long instructions
FEAT_RME_GPC3RME Granule Protection Check 3 Extension
FEAT_RME_GDIRME Granular Data Isolation extension
FEAT_SVE2p2Scalable Vector Extensions version 2.2
FEAT_SVE_AES2SVE multi-vector Advanced Encryption Standard and 128-bit polynomial multiply long instructions
FEAT_LSFELarge System Float Extension
FEAT_FPRCVTFloating-Point to/from Integer in Scalar FP register
FEAT_SVE_F16F32MMSVE Half-Precision to Single-Precision Matrix Multiplication
FEAT_F8F16MMFP8 to Half-Precision Matrix Multiplication
FEAT_SSVE_F8F16MMFP8 to Half-Precision Matrix Multiplication in Streaming SVE mode
FEAT_F8F32MMFP8 to Single-Precision Matrix Multiplication
FEAT_SSVE_F8F32MMFP8 to Single-Precision Matrix Multiplication in Streaming SVE mode
FEAT_SVE_BFSCALEBFloat16 Floating-Point Adjust Exponent
FEAT_OCCMOOuter Cacheable Cache Maintenance Operation
FEAT_LS64WBLS64 for Write-back cacheable memory
FEAT_MPAM_MSC_DOMAINSMPAM Domains PARTID translation
FEAT_MPAM_MSC_DCTRLMPAM Default Resource Control
FEAT_MPAM_PE_BW_CTRLMPAM PE-side Bandwidth Controls
FEAT_PCDPHINTProducer-Consumer Data Placement Hints
FEAT_SRMASKBitwise System Register Write Masks
FEAT_IDTE3Trapping ID register accesses to EL3
FEAT_UINJInjection of Undefined Instruction exceptions
FEAT_NV2p1Enhanced nested virtualization support
FEAT_LSUIUnprivileged Load Store
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Interesting point in the SVE 2.2 (FEAT_SVE2p2) doc page linked in my post above:

FEAT_SVE2p2 is OPTIONAL from Armv9.5.

In an Armv9.6 implementation, if FEAT_SVE2 is implemented, FEAT_SVE2p2 is implemented.

If FEAT_SVE2p2 is implemented, then FEAT_SVE2p1 is implemented.

If FEAT_SVE2 and FEAT_SME2p2 are implemented, then FEAT_SVE2p2 is implemented.

So any v9.6-A implementation with SVE2 should have these new instructions.

Going by the RK3688 specs it seems likely that the 2025 ARM CPU IP gen should be v9.3 so there's quite some time to go before these new instructions get implemented in hardware.
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
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The Mediatek/nVidia ARM CPU is going into production at the end of next year... but will be $300? That's really high.
Probably won't be cheap.

nVidia are likely only partnering with Mediatek because they don't have the modem part of the equation for a full mobile SoC compatible with modern 5G cell standards.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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Probably won't be cheap.

nVidia are likely only partnering with Mediatek because they don't have the modem part of the equation for a full mobile SoC compatible with modern 5G cell standards.
Mediatek probably has more experience than Nvidia in integrating ARM cores and designing an efficient SoC.
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
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ARM loves to talkabout SME but they don't seem to implement in their SoCs.
It's kinda lookin like SME was created to have an official spec to replace the proprietary one Apple made with AMX.

That's not to say that SME won't ever be in ARM Ltd's own CPU IP - but I wouldn't expect it anytime soon.

Happy to be surprised though if it comes in the 2025-26 IP releases.
 
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MS_AT

Senior member
Jul 15, 2024
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View attachment 109408
ARM loves to talkabout SME but they don't seem to implement in their SoCs.

Is there any ARM design that is compatible with v9.6 ISA version? If not, and I guess nothing is since it seems it was announced after they announced this year's core designs, it's hard to expect it to be already implemented

What is more, I think SVE is already mandated on the X4, and what Qualcomm did was to disable it in firmware, so it's one thing to implement it, another one to get someone to use it
 
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EV9

Junior Member
Oct 14, 2024
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View attachment 109408
ARM loves to talkabout SME but they don't seem to implement in their SoCs.


SME2 should be at least an optional feature of the next-generation of CPUs. As far as I know and subject to changes, Travis (Cortex-X) and Gelas (Cortex-A7xx) support SME2, Nevis (Cortex-A5xx) doesn't, neither does the Neoverse V3 derived from the X925.
 
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FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
4,238
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It's kinda lookin like SME was created to have an official spec to replace the proprietary one Apple made with AMX.

That's not to say that SME won't ever be in ARM Ltd's own CPU IP - but I wouldn't expect it anytime soon.

Happy to be surprised though if it comes in the 2025-26 IP releases.
Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 Gen 5 is rumoured to have SME.
 

Nothingness

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2013
3,137
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Is there any ARM design that is compatible with v9.6 ISA version? If not, and I guess nothing is since it seems it was announced after they announced this year's core designs, it's hard to expect it to be already implemented
Arm announces years in advance new ISA features, they've been doing that for years. Intel does exactly the same.

Arm cores have had SVE since Cortex-X2 and A710 announced in 2021. SVE was announced in 2016 IIRC.

What Qualcomm did by disabling SVE in firmware was perhaps a way to prepare for Nuvia core release, a core that lacks SVE.
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Arm cores have had SVE* since Cortex-X2 and A710 announced in 2021. SVE** was announced in 2016 IIRC.
*SVE2 for the 2021 CPU IP.

It was announced with TME (ARM64 transactional memory) in 2019.

**SVE1 first implementation was Fujitsu's custom supercomputing CPU core A64FX in 2019, and then later Neoverse V1/Zeus based on Cortex X1 with some extra instruction set extension support.

SVE1 was not suitable for consumer use as it didn't have parity with NEON for commonly used media processing instructions, so there was no point in adding it to Cortex X1.
 
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