Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

mikk · Oct 18, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Exist is saying PTL will be worse than Lunarlake for LNL's target segment. Nothing unexpected. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Do you have a link? What target segment? Target segment for LNL seems to be mostly in a 25W+ range. This should be an easy win for PTL with +8 E cores. He says LNL is better for fanless devices but that's below 10W and irrelevant for PTL and pretty much for LNL as well.

Wolverine2349 · Oct 18, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
Let us wait and see.

I think the raptor lake fiasco forced Intel to be very conservative with their settings.
If the hope is real and I can restore the performance by overclocking ring, tile and memory.

Yes restore performance by overclocking ring and memory. As long as it does successfully and is stable and lasts long long time with 0 degradation on a large dual tower air cooler.

Josh128 · Oct 18, 2024

I found it and screenshotted it.

Wolverine2349 · Oct 18, 2024

Josh128 said:
I found it and screenshotted it.

View attachment 109645

This is bad if true. God 6 days cannot come here soon enough. I really need to see benchmarks to make informed decision.

Caught between a rock and hard place. Just realy want a more than 8 core option that is great for gaming as well. I have itched for it for 1.5 to 2 years or longer by now.

Not a fan of dual CCDs and the severe cross latency hit unlike Intel CPUs even to e-cores. Was not crazy about hybrid but willing to give a chance and accept it, especially with better e-cores and more than 16 threads with no SNT/HT is cool in of itself. But Arrow Lake performance looks questionable. But 6 long days to wait to know for sure.

Some say well just go Raptor Lake if so unsure of Arrow Lake and its performance is worse if you want more than 16 threads without HT/SMT *you can turn it off and get 14700K/13900K/14900K. But oh stability and degradation mystery and problems another thing in the way.

Its so frustrating!!

511 · Oct 18, 2024

Josh128 said:
I found it and screenshotted it.

View attachment 109645

How is AMD Zen 5 Cheaper Option can someone Enlighten me on this

Josh128 · Oct 18, 2024

511 said:
How is AMD Zen 5 Cheaper Option can someone Enlighten me on this

He must mean cheaper to manufacture.

GTracing · Oct 18, 2024

511 said:
How is AMD Zen 5 Cheaper Option can someone Enlighten me on this

That reads to me like English is their second language or it's a poor translation. I think they're referring to AMD CPUs, not calling the company cheap. They could mean that Zen5 is cheaper to manufacture than Arrow Lake, or that the cheap 7800X3D wins in gaming.

9949asd · Oct 18, 2024

511 said:
How is AMD Zen 5 Cheaper Option can someone Enlighten me on this

In Chinese market 9950x already drop almost 30%. But in North America the price didn’t changed.
9950x on tray in china now=3800rmb=530usd.

OneEng2 · Oct 18, 2024

511 said:
How is AMD Zen 5 Cheaper Option can someone Enlighten me on this

Perhaps they meant that Zen 5 is less expensive to produce?

AcrosTinus · Oct 18, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
Yes restore performance by overclocking ring and memory. As long as it does successfully and is stable and lasts long long time with 0 degradation on a large dual tower air cooler.

It won't degrade, this is TSMC. Unleashing this thing will still pull 350W min. so an air cooler is out of question. You must go towards an 360mm to 420mm AIO with a offset bracket to get the most out of this.

Waiting for Scatterbencher or whatever it is called, if there is enough headroom, I'm buying it otherwise I will rebuy a 12900K and call it a half decade before showing interest again

511 · Oct 18, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
Waiting for Scatterbencher or whatever it is called, if there is enough headroom, I'm buying it otherwise I will rebuy a 12900K and call it a half decade before showing interest again

🤣

Nothingness · Oct 18, 2024

João Bortolace said:
Apx is comming in DMR, so NVL also?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1847192948003201365

Hmm I don't see any APX in there. What am I missing?

OneEng2 · Oct 18, 2024

I still don't buy into all this gloom and doom for Intel, and believe me, I have had times over the last few decades when I felt Intel had stepped into the poo so deep that surely only a catastrophic result could be the outcome.

Time and time again, Intel has shown its ability to first, step in poo, second, step into poo with the other foot, third, wallow around in the mess, and finally, come out clean in the wash.

I am not even sure that one can say that this architecture is stepping in poo. I see it as redirecting their focus to efficiency and laptop/server workloads vs maximum desktop gaming performance.

We will see how this shakes out with the high performance laptop Arrow Lake release first, then Clearwater Forest.

I do agree with Pat G's assessment though. He has bet the entire company on 18A. I am pulling for him and Intel.

GTracing · Oct 18, 2024

Nothingness said:
Hmm I don't see any APX in there. What am I missing?

Last image

maddie · Oct 18, 2024

OneEng2 said:
I still don't buy into all this gloom and doom for Intel, and believe me, I have had times over the last few decades when I felt Intel had stepped into the poo so deep that surely only a catastrophic result could be the outcome.

Time and time again, Intel has shown its ability to first, step in poo, second, step into poo with the other foot, third, wallow around in the mess, and finally, come out clean in the wash.

I am not even sure that one can say that this architecture is stepping in poo. I see it as redirecting their focus to efficiency and laptop/server workloads vs maximum desktop gaming performance.

We will see how this shakes out with the high performance laptop Arrow Lake release first, then Clearwater Forest.

I do agree with Pat G's assessment though. He has bet the entire company on 18A. I am pulling for him and Intel.

Isn't this the 1st time that Intel is in serious monetary difficulties together with technical problems? They could buy their way out of trouble before, but I think not this time.

511 · Oct 18, 2024

maddie said:
Isn't this the 1st time that Intel is in serious monetary difficulties together with technical problems? They could buy their way out of trouble before, but I think not this time.

I think they were in trouble when Japanese flooded market with cheap SRAM

cannedlake240 · Oct 18, 2024

João Bortolace said:
Apx is comming in DMR, so NVL also?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1847192948003201365

Yes it was confirmed by an Intel employee on some other forum. Both use Panther cove although Nova apparently uses a rebranded version for marketing reasons

Wolverine2349 · Oct 18, 2024

If gaming performance was really a collapse why would Intel even release this. Why not cancel release or delay it.

Yes vanilla Zen 5 was disappointing and a flop, but thats because it did not improve gaming performance or did not regress it either compared to vanilla Zen 4.

Its one thing if Arrow Lake is no gaming improvement over Raptor Lake or maybe even a slight regression, but an outrght collapse?? How could intel release such a CPU. Or change marketing towards non gamers only lol if that is really the case.

gdansk · Oct 18, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
If gaming performance was really a collapse why would Intel even release this. Why not cancel release or delay it.

MT should be better, power should be limited out of the box, the platform is improved and people won't suspect it of exploding.

Wolverine2349 · Oct 18, 2024

gdansk said:
MT should be better, power should be limited out of the box, the platform is improved and people won't suspect it of exploding.

Exploding by you mean not degrading and stability issues. Its not like these chips were literally burning up and never worked. Well some of them did but that is better way to go and get RMA knowing its bad and not working at all.

Its worse when you start experiencing instability and not sure why because it may never have been truly stable to begin with and/or degrading so much faster than it should be. That's what RPL chips have issues with and no I do not trust the microcode update and vmin shift excuse is really a fix.

But a collapse in gaming performance is beyond unacceptable. If it was a minor regression ok, but a collapse if true ouch.

gdansk · Oct 18, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
But a collapse in gaming performance is beyond unacceptable. If it was a minor regression ok, but a collapse if true ouch.

I assume it's a minor regression in gaming, people really overreact to this and call it all sorts of dysphemisms. Plus we're playing a multi-language game of telephone so don't be caught up on the wording.

cannedlake240 · Oct 18, 2024

Wolverine2349 said:
But a collapse in gaming performance is beyond unacceptable.

It's not that dramatic. They botched the fabric for this gen and it's likely fixed by Nova lake or even Panther lake. This is almost nothing compared to their fabs seemingly having no customers. Going all in on fabs is basically why they are in this situation. Funny it's starting to look like cancelling Panther lake-S was a mistake. If the memory latency and LLC clocks are fixed it could've been a decent generation. Creating more 18A volume for IFS would've been a plus. Also the lga1851 platform wouldn't end up being retired after a single gen which is yet another blow to Intel mind share

yuri69 · Oct 18, 2024

Josh128 said:
I found it and screenshotted it.

View attachment 109645

3) Qualcomm is far behind; AMD Zen 6 comes in 2 years. So what is the competitive pressure?

Wolverine2349 · Oct 18, 2024

gdansk said:
I assume it's a minor regression in gaming, people really overreact to this and call it all sorts of dysphemisms. Plus we're playing a multi-language game of telephone so don't be caught up on the wording.

Minor regression. I wonder how much ring overclocking and faster RAM and tuning will at least make it par or better than Raptor Lake in gaming?

511 · Oct 18, 2024

yuri69 said:
3) Qualcomm is far behind; AMD Zen 6 comes in 2 years. So what is the competitive pressure?

Yup they are making PTL on Mobile on desktop there is only Zen 5 main focus is Mobile if Intel get it's fab online it's gonna be tough to offer cheaper prices for other players

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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