Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

AcrosTinus · Oct 23, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
This too? http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...akes-discussion-threads.2606448/post-41321702

More on the numbers:
if these are indeed true and there were no driver issues, Intel is cooked. What am I seeing my eyes......

AcrosTinus · Oct 23, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Here's hoping you don't have to distrust all the reviews tomorrow.

I never distrust a consensus.
The issue is only to know how far Intel has fallen, I expected a dip from Raptor not Rocket Lake performance....

igor_kavinski · Oct 23, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
More on the numbers:
if these are indeed true and there were no driver issues, Intel is cooked. What am I seeing my eyes......

Wonder how many Intel employees have their parachutes at the ready...

AcrosTinus · Oct 23, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Wonder how many Intel employees have their parachutes at the ready...

I won't blame them, their tiles seem to be quite bad, higher latency than AMDs cheaper approach somehow....

No wonder they started reducing the complexity on the server parts, xeon 6 is in fact 3 monolithic dies and turin is really a chiplet design because the smallest part is a 8 core cluster not a 44 core one.

adroc_thurston · Oct 23, 2024

Wow ARL-S is a lot worse in vidya than I expected. 3M L2 didn't help one bit I guess.

igor_kavinski said:
Wonder how many Intel employees have their parachutes at the ready...

Intel already gave out a ton of chutes in voluntary early separation programs.

511 · Oct 23, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
I won't blame them, their tiles seem to be quite bad, higher latency than AMDs cheaper approach somehow....

No wonder they started reducing the complexity on the server parts, xeon 6 is in fact 3 monolithic dies and turin is really a chiplet design because the smallest part is a 8 core cluster not a 44 core one.

EMIB and Foveros are two different things it's not the tiles but the fabric the Ring and NOC dragging it down

desrever · Oct 23, 2024

So Zen 4 gaming performance was too optimistic, it seems ARL is competitive with Zen 3.

igor_kavinski · Oct 23, 2024

desrever said:
it seems ARL is competitive with Zen 3.

ARL will soon have Zen 3 prices too!

DAPUNISHER · Oct 23, 2024

Hitman928 said:
View attachment 110081

igor_kavinski · Oct 23, 2024

Joe NYC said:
Factorio stresses all parts of memory subsystem, so there are clearly major problems there.

Crap. There go my dreams of breaking Rapydmark High 110 sec barrier for Intel CPUs

511 · Oct 23, 2024

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/s/EnatrToDu5

Tiles from an Actual Intel Engineer

I can answer some of that actually. ARL is an MTL successor and ARL-S belongs to the same family of chips as MTL-S. They share a lot of DNA, right down to how tiles were laid out.

The splitting of the CPU, SoC, I/O, and GPU was done on MTL to power down parts that don't need it. You also get to pick and choose process nodes at will to balance performance and cost for each subsystem. The tiny iGPU doesn't need the absolute best, so it gets 5nm. We're not exactly making some super APU here, just drive a couple monitors. The CPU needs to be on the bleeding edge, so it gets 3nm. SoC and I/O don't generally scale down that well, so they get even older nodes than the iGPU because there's not much point in using anything better.

LNL needs everything to be super localized as they can't afford interconnect losses in that power segment as MTL-U proves, so it gets to be basically monolithic with the APU tile and I/O tile split. The die is also small enough that the yields and cost of 3nm are still very reasonable. LNL's APU tile is similar in size to some upcoming Smartphone SoCs.

Building ARL like LNL would have been insanely expensive as that's a ton of 3nm silicon, so it got carved up. I suspect the reason for the GPU being split off is to reuse MTL stuff. Even if it isn't the exact same tile, they've done a 4 Xe core iGPU on its own tile before.

IMO, and I say this as a die packaging engineer, there should be 3 tiles (plus interposer) here. The CPU cores and memory controller can go together to give the latency-sensitive cores the fastest access possible. Foveros latency isn't completely atrocious, but it's never beating being on-die. Nothing on SoC needs super low latency so that's fine, and we can combine in the GPU here so it still gets a link to the tile that has the memory controller on it rather than needing to go through the SoC tile to the CPU tile for it. I/O can stay split off by itself. Nothing on the I/O tile scales down very well, nor is there any substantial benefit to combining it with other tiles, so it can stay as is.

CouncilorIrissa · Oct 23, 2024

You shouldn't pay too much attention to this review, there are way too many very questionable numbers, like 14900K being 70% faster than 14900KS in Factorio update time benchmark

adroc_thurston · Oct 23, 2024

Hitman928 said:
Factorio isn't representative of most games

It's a specific case of cache (small factory) and memory (chunggus khan one) gore.
Pretty indicative of the weak spot.

511 · Oct 23, 2024

Basically Admitting the design was wrong and CPU+IMC should have been in the same tile

511 · Oct 23, 2024

511 said:
IMO, and I say this as a die packaging engineer, there should be 3 tiles (plus interposer) here. The CPU cores and memory controller can go together to give the latency-sensitive cores the fastest access possible. Foveros latency isn't completely atrocious, but it's never beating being on-die. Nothing on SoC needs super low latency so that's fine, and we can combine in the GPU here so it still gets a link to the tile that has the memory controller on it rather than needing to go through the SoC tile to the CPU tile for it. I/O can stay split off by itself. Nothing on the I/O tile scales down very well, nor is there any substantial benefit to combining it with other tiles, so it can stay as is.

Basically the design choices were wrong for desktop
Can someone delete this post as it is a duplicate post
Some Moderator 🙂

adroc_thurston · Oct 23, 2024

511 said:
The CPU cores and memory controller can go together to give the latency-sensitive cores the fastest access possible

You're not gonna believe what PTL is doing

SiliconFly · Oct 23, 2024

According to Intel's own slides, it looks like 285K isn't that good at gaming. But since this isn't the whole picture, actual 3rd party reviews should tell us more. But as of now, it appears there isn't much sandbagging.

The two slides above show 285K is behind 7950X3D & 9950X in graphics intensive games like Cyberpunk 2077, Far Cry 6, Red Dead Redemption 2, FF XIV, etc. And when it comes to gaming benchmarks, these are the kinda games that actually matter the most & sadly ARL seems to lagging here already (according to Intel themselves).

511 · Oct 23, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
You're not gonna believe what PTL is doing

I know what it is doing CPU+NPU+Video Engine+Imc 18A On same die GPU on N3E/I3 and N6 IO

inquiss · Oct 23, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
You're not gonna believe what PTL is doing

It's either doing that exact thing or completely the opposite I'm guessing from your post

adroc_thurston · Oct 23, 2024

inquiss said:
It's either doing that exact thing or completely the opposite I'm guessing from your post

Compute and SOC tiles gattai into one in PTL. Only the iGP and HSIO are separate.

Hitman928 · Oct 23, 2024

DAPUNISHER said:
View attachment 110110

If other reviewers show what the leaked review does (more or less) and it wasn't due to a bad motherboard or something, I am curious to see if outlets will publish multiple videos on how Intel was lying about performance in their pre-release marketing slides

desrever · Oct 23, 2024

Hitman928 said:
If other reviewers show what the leaked review does (more or less) and it wasn't due to a bad motherboard or something, I am curious to see if outlets will publish multiple videos on how Intel was lying about performance in their pre-release marketing slides

They will instead make videos on "we decided not to do gaming benchmarks", "the performance per dollar in cinebench r24 is unmatched" and "Give Intel a chance to release new bios, we need competition"

poke01 · Oct 23, 2024

Kepler_L2 said:
"Waste of sand" GN video incoming.

So my old 12400 is better in Factorio than a 285K. Guys I have a the best cheap Intel flagship already in my closet.

gdansk · Oct 23, 2024

poke01 said:
So my old 12400 is better in Factorio than a 285K. Guys I have a the best cheap Intel flagship already in my closet.

I don't know. Results are not very typical. I will wait for other tests. I expect it to do much better if the scheduler wakes up.

igor_kavinski · Oct 23, 2024

gdansk said:
I don't know. Results are not very typical. I will wait for other tests. I expect it to do much better if the scheduler wakes up.

It was someone on this forum who not sure if he was joking or serious but I think I read that Microsoft has a special Win11 patch slated for release soon after Arrow Lake.

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