Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

gaav87 · Oct 23, 2024

Kocicak said:
Well, it contains just the first page of the review.

you need to swap on bing every page ends with /1 /2 /3 etc.

"https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/intel-core-ultra-200s-cpu-review/6/" type this on bing then click the little arrow next to the link and click cached

Like this

Intel Core Ultra 200S CPU Review - OC3D

Aiming squarely at rectifying the problems of the recent Intel CPUs, the Core Ultra range are cool and efficient.

cc.bingj.com

Thunder 57 · Oct 23, 2024

I was sort of laughing about the CB conspiracy theories that came up recently but maybe @Abwx was on to something. ARL looks amazing in CB. It seems to fall apart in everything else.

gaav87 · Oct 23, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
I was sort of laughing about the CB conspiracy theories that came up recently but maybe @Abwx was on to something. ARL looks amazing in CB. It seems to fall apart in everything else.

Amazing ? its losing to 14900k and 9950x in R20

Intel Core Ultra 200S CPU Review - OC3D

Aiming squarely at rectifying the problems of the recent Intel CPUs, the Core Ultra range are cool and efficient.

cc.bingj.com

igor_kavinski · Oct 23, 2024

Kocicak said:
Well, it contains just the first page of the review.

Did OC3D get a threatening call from their Intel handler?

"Take down that review! NOW! And release a statement tomorrow that you messed up by testing Arrow Lake improperly!".

OC3D: "Our main testing guy was on vacation and we hired this other guy not two days before and he last tested Athlon 64 when he was a teen but he didn't mention that on his resume and told us that he had experience reviewing 64-bit processors...".

gaav87 · Oct 23, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Did OC3D get a threatening call from their Intel handler?

"Take down that review! NOW! And release a statement tomorrow that you messed up by testing Arrow Lake improperly!".

OC3D: "Our main testing guy was on vacation and we hired this other guy not two days before and he last tested Athlon 64 when he was a teen but he didn't mention that on his resume and told us that he had experience reviewing 64-bit processors...".

Im reading whole review its horrible... i posted above how to read it all cached not just screenshots.

Sunaiac · Oct 23, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Did OC3D get a threatening call from their Intel handler?

"Take down that review! NOW! And release a statement tomorrow that you messed up by testing Arrow Lake improperly!".

OC3D: "Our main testing guy was on vacation and we hired this other guy not two days before and he last tested Athlon 64 when he was a teen but he didn't mention that on his resume and told us that he had experience reviewing 64-bit processors...".

Well if he tested A64 he should feel like nothing much has changed with Intel still -25% perf for +25% power :whistling:

Gideon · Oct 23, 2024

511 said:
Basically Admitting the design was wrong and CPU+IMC should have been in the same tile

Well that can't be the only reason. Zen apparently manages to do better, despite these being on separate dies (on a archaic packaging process)

poke01 · Oct 23, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
I was sort of laughing about the CB conspiracy theories that came up recently but maybe @Abwx was on to something. ARL looks amazing in CB. It seems to fall apart in everything else.

It’s also amazing in Geekbench. But if we look deeper the 9950X is actually better in CB2024 for MT while using less power than the 285K.

My suspicion of it better than 9950X in ST in CB2024 is that it may use more power. Do we know the single thread power consumption at 5,7GHZ vs the 9950X?

Abwx · Oct 23, 2024

gaav87 said:
Amazing ? its losing to 14900k and 9950x in R20

Intel Core Ultra 200S CPU Review - OC3D

Aiming squarely at rectifying the problems of the recent Intel CPUs, the Core Ultra range are cool and efficient.

cc.bingj.com

It doesnt, it s because those CPUs are on unlimited power in this review, actualy even in CB 2024 the 9950X is ahead of a 253W 14900K, or should i say a 275W since with a PL2 at 253W it still managed to pull 275W in Computerbase review.

And if you want to dig further look at the ST scores in CB R20/R23 and do the comparison with CB 2024.

AMD Ryzen 9 9900X und 9950X im Test: Benchmarks in neuen Anwendungstests

Ryzen 9 9950X & 9900X im Test: Benchmarks in neuen Anwendungstests / Intel-Instabilität und AGESA-Updates sind die (neue) Tagesordnung

www.computerbase.de

gaav87 · Oct 23, 2024

Abwx said:
It doesnt, it s because those CPUs are on unlimited power in this review, actualy even in CB 2024 the 9950X is ahead of a 253W 14900K, or should i say a 275W since with a PL2 at 253W it still managed to pull 275W in Computerbase review.

AMD Ryzen 9 9900X und 9950X im Test: Benchmarks in neuen Anwendungstests

Ryzen 9 9950X & 9900X im Test: Benchmarks in neuen Anwendungstests / Intel-Instabilität und AGESA-Updates sind die (neue) Tagesordnung

www.computerbase.de

Look at the power draw its 42W above 9950x

Intel Core Ultra 200S CPU Review - OC3D

Aiming squarely at rectifying the problems of the recent Intel CPUs, the Core Ultra range are cool and efficient.

cc.bingj.com

Abwx · Oct 23, 2024

gaav87 said:
Look at the power draw its 42W above 9950x

Intel Core Ultra 200S CPU Review - OC3D

Aiming squarely at rectifying the problems of the recent Intel CPUs, the Core Ultra range are cool and efficient.

cc.bingj.com

This review is not accurate, that s a full system power, beside they have the 9950X at a higher power than the 7950X, yet the latter has a 230W PPT while the former has a 200W PPT.

Also this would imply that the 14900K/KS are at 230W if the 9950X is at 200W, wich is impossible for those scores.

I edited my previous post, compare the ST scores in CB R20/23 to CB 2024,
i did so, Strix Point FI is quite ahead of LNL in R20/R23 and is quite behind in R 2024.

poke01 · Oct 23, 2024

Re: Intel being 6% better in ST than the 9950X in CB2024, keep a look out for power consumption at 5.7GHz on a single core tomorrow.

The 9950X scores 139 at 5.7GHz while using 31 watts. Now if the 285K uses 6% or more power to deliver 6% more ST I don’t consider that a win.

Edit: it’s 6% not 8%.

exquisitechar · Oct 23, 2024

poke01 said:
Re: Intel being 6% better in ST than the 9950X in CB2024, keep a look out for power consumption at 5.7GHz on a single core tomorrow.

The 9950X scores 139 at 5.7GHz while using 31 watts. Now if the 285K uses 6% or more power to deliver 6% more ST I don’t consider that a win.

Edit: it’s 6% not 8%.

6% more power for 6% higher ST performance is definitely a win.

DavidC1 · Oct 23, 2024

GTracing said:
Interesting to see some of his testing tools.

Steve is heavily implying that Arrow Lake uses more power from the motherboard connector and he hints that the power consumption figures in Intel's marketing materials don't take into account.

So not only Intel's own marketing materials disappoint, there's a possibility that it's still too optimistic and it may be a misleading result?

On top of that BSOD issues, platform instability, and varying performance from run to run? Why does a CPU need a matching software and OS update to perform like it was promised?

Maybe the Netburst comparison wasn't fit for Lion Cove but for the entire Arrowlake chip. Right now it reminds me of Prescott.

gaav87 · Oct 23, 2024

DavidC1 said:
So not only Intel's own marketing materials disappoint, there's a possibility that it's still too optimistic and it may be a misleading result?

On top of that BSOD issues, platform instability, and varying performance from run to run? Why does a CPU need a matching software and OS update to perform like it was promised?

Maybe the Netburst comparison wasn't fit for Lion Cove but for the entire Arrowlake chip. Right now it reminds me of Prescott.

They said 70-80W lower then 14900k it matches the OC3D review

GTracing · Oct 23, 2024

gaav87 said:
They said 70-80W lower then 14900k it matches the OC3D review

If OC3D is measuring power consumption using the 8-pin CPU cable then they wouldn't catch the higher power consumption.

Hitman928 · Oct 23, 2024

DavidC1 said:
So not only Intel's own marketing materials disappoint, there's a possibility that it's still too optimistic and it may be a misleading result?

On top of that BSOD issues, platform instability, and varying performance from run to run? Why does a CPU need a matching software and OS update to perform like it was promised?

Maybe the Netburst comparison wasn't fit for Lion Cove but for the entire Arrowlake chip. Right now it reminds me of Prescott.

TBF, we haven’t seen any real confirmation of the instability/crashing issues. Will be interesting to see if it’s mentioned by any reviewers tomorrow.

Abwx · Oct 23, 2024

gaav87 said:
They said 70-80W lower then 14900k it matches the OC3D review

Seriously, Computerbase has lower R20 scores for the 14900K/KS and they measure roughly 500W full system in Cinebench and 329W for the 7950X, beside the OCN review has 9% higher R20 score, wich point to an AIO cooling, if we are to trust their power numbers then RPL has as good perf/watt as the 7950X.

Intel Core i9-14900KS im Test: Anwendungs-Benchmarks, Leistungsaufnahme & Temperatur

Intel Core i9-14900KS im Test: Anwendungs-Benchmarks, Leistungsaufnahme & Temperatur / Testsystem und Testmethodik für Anwendungen

www.computerbase.de

gaav87 · Oct 23, 2024

Abwx said:
Seriously, Computerbase has lower R20 scores for the 14900K/KS and they measure roughly 500W full system in Cinebench and 329W for the 7950X, beside the OCN review has 9% higher R20 score, wich point to an AIO cooling, if we are to trust their power numbers then RPL has as good perf/watt as the 7950X.

Intel Core i9-14900KS im Test: Anwendungs-Benchmarks, Leistungsaufnahme & Temperatur

Intel Core i9-14900KS im Test: Anwendungs-Benchmarks, Leistungsaufnahme & Temperatur / Testsystem und Testmethodik für Anwendungen

www.computerbase.de

They have the test setup in the review i think at like page 4 or smt cba reading it again. Anyway huge copium even linus can't defend this.

KompuKare · Oct 23, 2024

cannedlake240 said:
Novalake will finally match raptor lake lmao

"And the starting bids for the Nova Lane hype-train are in!"

"First we have cannedlake240 starting bid of 'matches Raptor Lake'"

"Any other bids?"

Hitman928 · Oct 23, 2024

This situation reminds me of a Key and Peele sketch in a gentlemen’s club where zen 5 is Peele and ARL is Key.

Abwx · Oct 23, 2024

gaav87 said:
They have the test setup in the review i think at like page 4 or smt cba reading it again. Anyway huge copium even linus can't defend this.

We ll see in 15H, Computerbase will have some power tests that can be trusted, for the rest their current bench suite is anemic quantity wise, there should be more numbers at Hardewareluxx.

AcrosTinus · Oct 23, 2024

DavidC1 said:
So not only Intel's own marketing materials disappoint, there's a possibility that it's still too optimistic and it may be a misleading result?

On top of that BSOD issues, platform instability, and varying performance from run to run? Why does a CPU need a matching software and OS update to perform like it was promised?

Maybe the Netburst comparison wasn't fit for Lion Cove but for the entire Arrowlake chip. Right now it reminds me of Prescott.

I don't have the required knowledge to really know but the disaggregation of their chips spanning from mobile to low latency desktop does not work.

The desktop requires a dedicated approach not a unified one. AMD knows this and has been mastering this approach. If Intel can stay alive for 5 years, we might see the real tiles architecture optimized for gaming and low latency computing.

I just cannot believe that meteor lakes flaws were not corrected.
Welp, if this is really true I will be jumping on 24Core TR Zen5 or new package Zen6 mainstream.

SiliconFly · Oct 23, 2024

KompuKare said:
"And the starting bids for the Nova Lane hype-train are in!"

"First we have cannedlake240 starting bid of 'matches Raptor Lake'"

"Any other bids?"

"Second we have 285K ST performance gain of >10% to 15% over 14900K" (this one is on me)

Rheingold · Oct 23, 2024

GTracing said:
Steve is heavily implying that Arrow Lake uses more power from the motherboard connector

This was already discovered by der8auer two weeks ago, he talks about it here.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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