Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

tsamolotoff · Oct 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Which files?

Related to something that is called KGL in the 'debug info' of gamebar, it looks like these files don't get updated automatically in some cases (no idea why) on older OS installations even if you completely delete and reinstall gamebar, xbox app / services and even ms-store itself. In any case it's offtopic for intel thread, better continue this discussion in the Z5 topic if you wish

9949asd · Oct 24, 2024

Josh128 said:
So its a fantastic step forward for Intel that will build the foundation for a solid future then? When do actual Western reviews publish?

but intel did learn the example of amd, they should come out with something like x3d in the first place for the gaming improvements.

Det0x · Oct 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Temp at 4C

Intel's new campaign: "Arrow Lake. Best experienced in the nice cold outdoors of Siberia!"

You can bet your behind its much colder that 4C, but its also expected with XOC LN2.

Hwinfo in benchmate cant read Arrow Lake sensors correctly at these settings yet.. 5w powerusage should be telling 🤣

511 · Oct 24, 2024

Det0x said:
XOC R23 MT
View attachment 110199

lol they must have pushed so hard to try to beak 9950X's 60k

at 5W new perf champion

Abwx · Oct 24, 2024

MS_AT said:
I don't know what he compiled, but the problem with Visual Studio compiler is it doesn't have a notion of CPU architecture or vendor. Just instruction sets. I hope Mark will see this post and will join the discussion explaining what he did exactly.

Oh and for Skymont running in SSE mode is more beneficial than AVX if the SSE only binary is used to compare all CPUs. Just a detail.

Well, CPU-Z does a poor job as a benchmark, so it's results should be generally ignored either for Intel or AMD.

Check here and the following posts :

Page 449 - Discussion - Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

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511 · Oct 24, 2024

Reviews up

sl0519 · Oct 24, 2024

zen 5%. arrow -5%. lol!

cebri1 · Oct 24, 2024

Intel Core Ultra 9 285K "Arrow Lake" Delivers Strong Linux Performance Review - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

Look good despite lack of AVX512

Hitman928 · Oct 24, 2024

SiliconFly said:
AMD employs older style chiplet interconnect. Physical wires connecting die-to-die routed thru the substrate itself. Intel employs more advanced packaging (stacking) where the chiplets sit on the interposer which in turn sits on top of the substrate itself. That is the technical distinction between the two imho.

My point is the name is meaningless. You are correct that there are technical differences between the approaches but the names are just marketing. AMD could use Intel's packaging and still call it chiplets. Your original post made it sound like the names referred to the technology they are using but the names are arbitrary.

Saylick · Oct 24, 2024

sl0519 said:
zen 5%. arrow -5%. lol!

Can’t say that thumbnail surprised anyone lol

Hitman928 · Oct 24, 2024

sl0519 said:
zen 5%. arrow -5%. lol!

Better than previous showings at least. . .

cebri1 · Oct 24, 2024

Very good step forward in perf/watt. But imo 50$\€ too expensive. Tough sell with platform cost.

Hulk · Oct 24, 2024

Hulk said:
I have gone over the Intel provided CB R24 data in some detail and here is what I have found. Please let me know where I've lost the trail.

Based on my testing of my 14900K in CB R24 MT, Raptor Cove does about 21.2 points/GHz (no HT), 27.8 points/GHz (with HT) and Gracemont about 12.8 in MT.

Using these numbers, a 14900K at stock 5.6/4.4 speeds from Intel Ark would score 2147 points.

Intel claims Arrow Lake is 18% faster or would score about 2525. Stock Arrow Lake speeds are 5.5/4.6 as viewed in Intel Ark.

Since the P cores are similar architectures we'll start with the +9% for Lion Cove over Raptor Cove, using the non HT Raptor 21.2 points/GHz and increase it to 23.1.

So, assuming +9% IPC ST increase for Lion Cove compared to Raptor Cove ST (Raptor Cove ST IPC derived from 8P only run without HT, not ST run, they are different, ST run is generally a bit higher than score obtained by taking MT score most likely due to multithreading overhead), then Skymont would need a 60% IPC increase in CB R23 vs Raptor Lake Gracemont or an increase from 12.8 points/GHz to 20.5 points/GHz, or in other words 3.5% less IPC than Raptor Cove.

Looking at ST scores, Intel claims 8% better for Lion Cove. Now we're looking at 6GHz for Raptor Cove and 5.7GHz for Lion Cove. This would require a 13.5% IPC increase for Lion Cove over Raptor Cove and the Lion Cove score would be about 146.

So, let's review.

According to Intel, looking at Cinebench R24 MT:
Lion Cove will have a 9% increase in MT score when you look at Raptor Cove without HT on vs Lion Cove.
Skymont will have a 60% increase in IPC over Gracemont or be 3.5% below Raptor Cove IPC.

For Cinebench R24 ST:
To achieve the Intel claimed 8% increase in score Lion Cove will need an IPC increase of 13.5% over Raptor Cove.

According to this data, Arrow Lake at 5.5/4.6 should score 146/2525 in Cinebench R24 ST, MT, respectively.

So if these numbers (Intel's claims) turn out to be true then Arrow Lake will be a good CB R24 performer mainly due to the astounding uptick in IPC of Skymont. I did not expect to see +60%. That's Conroe territory

One more thing I forgot to mention. In CB R24 if you compare the MT IPC performance of Lion Cove vs. Raptor Cove without HT, Lion Cove is only better by 13%. If you take the clockspeed deficit into account Lion Cove is better by 35%. Skymont looks to be formidable in FP.

It may be time for Intel to start considering a "workstation" version of Arrow Lake that is 6+24. That would be quite the MT powerhouse especially if they can creep up the clock on Skymont to ~5GHz without dramatically increasing the area.

One final, final thing. With RPL the P/E split for compute with CB 2024 MT was 58%/42%, now with ARL it looks to be 40%/60%. The P's and E's have reversed with Skymont carrying more of the compute load.

Here is my post from a few weeks ago where my CB R24 "Predictor" for ARL based on Intel pre-release data predicted a MT score of 2525 and ST of 146 vs and 2545 and 148. I was really close to this review at least for CB R24.

cebri1 said:

PJVol · Oct 24, 2024

Hitman928 said:
Better than previous showings at least. . .

Yeah, stability issues is nothing to worry about...

Hitman928 · Oct 24, 2024

Some of the regressions are wild though. . .

coercitiv · Oct 24, 2024

So HUB reports the 285K does indeed have some stability issues, and has major stability issues with Win 24H2.

SolidQ · Oct 24, 2024

HUB tested CPU demanding area

Saylick · Oct 24, 2024

SolidQ said:
HUB tested CPU demanding area

BIG YIKES.

gdansk · Oct 24, 2024

coercitiv said:
So HUB reports the 285K does indeed have some stability issues, and has major stability issues with Win 24H2.

I also see some tests in Phoronix where it seems possible it's scheduling on Skymont instead of Lion Cove. So maybe not only Windows scheduler problems but also in Linux. Or it really is on the right core and it somehow became much worse? Weird in any case.

Hitman928 · Oct 24, 2024

So from a quick read/watch, it seems like ARL is good at rendering and video encoding. For everything else, it ranges from terrible to mediocre performance. Power consumption is way down from RPL but not as efficient as AMD. Additionally, it seems to have platform issues causing inconsistent performance/instability. This is not P4/Bulldozer levels of bad, but it's pretty ugly.

SolidQ · Oct 24, 2024

Outside City 285 tie to 14900, but when entering to city RIP 285

moinmoin · Oct 24, 2024

And from the other Steve:

511 · Oct 24, 2024

Intel should have had refreshed U9 285K on Intel 7 instead of paying TSMC

AcrosTinus · Oct 24, 2024

So, I'm done consuming some of the biggest reviews:

Here is the autopsy:

Power consumption is indeed lowered
ST performance is the best currently in x86 world
MT performance is great and Skymont compensated the lack of HT
CUDIMM advantage consumed by the latency of the Tile architecture
If you don't game on a 4090 or game in 4K, these CPUs and any CPU will make no difference
AMD wins in all cases when it comes to gaming
Basically a nice entry level workstation chips that games well enough for GPUs up to 4070Ti Super or 4080.
For anyone on Raptor or Alder, SKIP
The foundation is not as bad as I though, It might need a new revision

Hitman928 · Oct 24, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
So, I'm done consuming some of the biggest reviews:

Here is the autopsy:

Power consumption is indeed lowered

ST performance is the best currently in x86 world

MT performance is great and Skymont compensated the lack of HT

CUDIMM advantage consumed by the latency of the Tile architecture

If you don't game on a 4090 or game in 4K, these CPUs and any CPU will make no difference

AMD wins in all cases when it comes to gaming

Basically a nice entry level workstation chips that games well enough for GPUs up to 4070Ti Super or 4080.

For anyone on Raptor or Alder, SKIP

The foundation is not as bad as I though, It might need a new revision

I'm not so sure it takes the ST crown and MT is very hit and miss.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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