Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Thunder 57 · Oct 25, 2024

desrever said:
Intel would have to lose for many many years for AMD to get to 50% market share then.

Intel seems to be doing enough damage on its own to make that happen. Their 18A better be as promised. The other threat is ARM. I like x86 because of its backwards compatibility. Also the fact that it isn't a "walled garden".

poke01 · Oct 25, 2024

Thunder 57 said:
Intel seems to be doing enough damage on its own to make that happen. Their 18A better be as promised. The other threat is ARM. I like x86 because of its backwards compatibility. Also the fact that it isn't a "walled garden".

A bit off topic but ARM isn't a walled garden. You can get ARM worksations from System76 with upgradeable CPUs/GPUs/RAM which run Linux. Its just no one cares about Windows on ARM because Qualcomm had an exclusivity period with MS. Apple's idea of ARM computer is different from others like System76.

In the future who knows a RISC-V/ARM core might be so powerful that even with a 20% emulation hit its still faster than then contemporary x86 designs.

Thelio Astra

system76.com

CakeMonster · Oct 25, 2024

I can understand Intel being in a challenging situation with their initial product on a re-design, and waiting for their own next node and higher prices at TSMC. But they better be able to iterate on this quite quickly and steadily to keep gamers interested.

Josh128 · Oct 25, 2024

poke01 said:
Techspot uses HUB results I think

Indeed, for some reason my eyes saw "Techpowerup". 😂

Saylick · Oct 26, 2024

May God have mercy on Pat's soul...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850039772498239821

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850040480370917744

alcoholbob · Oct 26, 2024

Saylick said:
May God have mercy on Pat's soul...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850039772498239821

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850040480370917744

It's only a problem if there's actually a lot of demand for the 285K...

Saylick · Oct 26, 2024

alcoholbob said:
It's only a problem if there's actually a lot of demand for the 285K...

Ouch.

gdansk · Oct 26, 2024

265K is the more desirable part anyway isn't it?
And should be easier to bin.

RTX2080 · Oct 26, 2024

Saylick said:
May God have mercy on Pat's soul...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850039772498239821

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850040480370917744

alcoholbob said:
It's only a problem if there's actually a lot of demand for the 285K...

Not speaking demand, but 285k seems having supply problem which 265k/245k don't have. It may reflect the cost issue of ARL though.

TESKATLIPOKA · Oct 26, 2024

RTX2080 said:
Not speaking demand, but 285k seems having supply problem which 265k/245k don't have. It may reflect the cost issue of ARL though.

265K and 245K are the same chip as 285K If I am not mistaken.
If there is a supply issue, then only because there are many faulty chips.

adroc_thurston · Oct 26, 2024

gdansk said:
265K is the more desirable part anyway isn't it?

Not for Intel lmao.

TESKATLIPOKA said:
265K and 245K are the same chip as 285K If I am not mistaken.

Different yield parameters. 5.7 on a foundry node consistently is hella achievement.

TESKATLIPOKA · Oct 26, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Not for Intel lmao.

Of course not If It's $195 cheaper, but I as a customer don't care about that.

Kocicak · Oct 26, 2024

I tested a power limited Arrow lake here:

Testing ARROW lake - power limited

I got myself a testing PC with 265K, Strix E board and ordinary RAM (32GB, 6000 MHz, CL36) and tested the CPU with two power limits 100 and 160W, and compared it to 13900KS with 4 E cores disabled, both with HT on and off. As you can see, the results are pretty consistent, both apps in both...

www.techpowerup.com

lopri · Oct 26, 2024

Hulk said:
1.480 Vcore is in my opinion too much for Intel 7, much less a smaller node, under ambient for day-to-day use. You are practically begging for degradation. Everybody has a different opinion but I keep my 14900K under 1.3V and it's generally under 1.2V when under load.

This person got a great sample and is pushing it to the limit. It's great to show what ARL can do but not really useful for people that want to use these CPU's for longer than a few weeks.

From what I have seen online 1.4~1.5V (transient) is not an outlier. I think Ryzens do it, too.

But what I cannot get my head around is how 1.5V/250W is only reporting 80C max temp.

inf64 · Oct 26, 2024

It looks like intel will be in the rear view mirror even after Panther Lake, especially in gaming. It's sad since this means AMD will be commanding the prices for their X3D parts which will be priced higher than most of us would like to see. It was a solid opportunity for intel after flopped Zen 5 launch, but they managed to out-flop AMD with this one.

SiliconFly · Oct 26, 2024

inf64 said:
It was a solid opportunity for intel after flopped Zen 5 launch, but they managed to out-flop AMD with this one.

Intel's on a different level when it comes outdoing competition. Wonder what happened to the old Intel. But all is not lost yet. For that we need to wait for (ARL-H) mobile parts.

maddie · Oct 26, 2024

lopri said:
But what I cannot get my head around is how 1.5V/250W is only reporting 80C max temp.

Removing that much power from the available surface area should mean higher temps. A worthy investigation for someone.

mzocyteae · Oct 26, 2024

poke01 said:
A bit off topic but ARM isn't a walled garden. You can get ARM worksations from System76 with upgradeable CPUs/GPUs/RAM which run Linux. Its just no one cares about Windows on ARM because Qualcomm had an exclusivity period with MS. Apple's idea of ARM computer is different from others like System76.

In the future who knows a RISC-V/ARM core might be so powerful that even with a 20% emulation hit its still faster than then contemporary x86 designs.

Thelio Astra

system76.com

Surely AmpereOne is not a walled garden, but it pretty much isn't a valid choice as a desktop/workstation:
1. Low availability - few MB choice and retailers despite the cpus are launched long ago.
2. High cost - list price is way too expensive when comparing to msdt; total system cost won't be much better than epyc.
3. Questionable performance: lack of review (and MT/power is not promising); doomed ST; lack of cpu 2017 submission.
4. win32/linux binary support: some oss projects exists, but in they definitely can't do as well as wine or vmware workstation.
Maybe 1 & 3 will get better in the future, but 2 & 4 is unlikely.

majord · Oct 26, 2024

inf64 said:
It looks like intel will be in the rear view mirror even after Panther Lake, especially in gaming. It's sad since this means AMD will be commanding the prices for their X3D parts which will be priced higher than most of us would like to see. It was a solid opportunity for intel after flopped Zen 5 launch, but they managed to out-flop AMD with this one.

but I thought AMD were " never again to be in the windshield" :

SiliconFly · Oct 26, 2024

majord said:
but I thought AMD were " never again to be in the windshield" :

Statement still holds. Can't see competition in windshield when they're far ahead too.

poke01 · Oct 26, 2024

Kocicak said:
I tested a power limited Arrow lake here:

Testing ARROW lake - power limited

I got myself a testing PC with 265K, Strix E board and ordinary RAM (32GB, 6000 MHz, CL36) and tested the CPU with two power limits 100 and 160W, and compared it to 13900KS with 4 E cores disabled, both with HT on and off. As you can see, the results are pretty consistent, both apps in both...

www.techpowerup.com

whats more interesting, is your username over at TPU.

I love it lol

DAPUNISHER · Oct 26, 2024

gdansk said:
265K is the more desirable part anyway isn't it?
And should be easier to bin.

I do not think that word means what you think it means. In retail it is going to collect dust with the Zen 5 parts. All these latest generations from the IHVs have done is help sell the older SKUs. Going to take a significant price drop to move them. It would also be a BIG help if Intel would confirm 1851 isn't one and done.

poke01 · Oct 26, 2024

https://quasarzone.com/bbs/qf_cmr/views/2557513

Interview with David Huang.

these answers are interesting:

Q: I have a question. In the Luna Lake performance review posted a month ago, the Luna Lake 258V was about 12% faster than the Meteo Lake using the same clock speed Redwood Cove. But why did Arrow Lake only improve by about 2% compared to the previous work? Shouldn't Arrow Lake show better performance than Luna Lake in terms of IPC? Can you explain the reason to me?

A: Luna Lake's L3 latency is much better than this.

Q: In the case of Luna Lake, is IPC better because the L3 latency is much lower than Arrow Lake? However, I personally don't understand that the IPC improvement is only 2% compared to the previous work when considering the expansion of the interior of Arrow Lake's architecture.

A: The L3 latency of Luna Lake and Rapter Lake is about 55 cycles, while Arrow Lake (265K) is about 73 cycles and Meteo Lake (155H) is 80 cycles.

Q: I wonder how the result came out with such a low result. And why does Arrow Lake perform well on benchmarks like Cinebench R23/R24 or Geekbench?

A:Cinebench and Geekbench are mostly executed within the L2 cache. SPEC is generally much more sensitive to cache and memory.

tsamolotoff · Oct 26, 2024

PJVol said:
is this even explicable? )

There can be wildly different results depending on the test used, i.e. there is a popular canned benchmark in the steam workshop that many reviewers use which shows high FPS for almost any CPU and is basically a gpu benchmark while others (i2hard for example) use real-world demo files that were recorded during WGL championships or other high-ranking events where _sometimes_ CPU is more of a limit. Also, CS2 unlike CSGO has some particle effects processed via GPU now so the FPS lows might be actually caused by GPU, not CPU now. Also, if you use several monitors DWM sometimes breaks down and this tanks your FPS considerably as Windows attempts to sync game with DWM which leads to characteristic 'saw line' frametime which can easily noticed when you do tests manually, but it naturally would pass unnoticed while using automated benchmark tools.

tsamolotoff · Oct 26, 2024

HW Unboxed actually discusses this phenomenon here: in some more GPU-heavy game segments ARL looks nice, but when the game starts to put more pressure on the CPU, situation is drastically reversed.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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