Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Saylick · Oct 27, 2024

Hulk said:
Read my lips.
"5 nodes in 4 years."

I’m wasn’t around but I understood this reference.

LightningZ71 · Oct 27, 2024

cebri1 said:
Deliding reduces temps by 20C :O

Edit: WTF
View attachment 110397

That's a solid overclock of the E cores. Power usage is down too for higher performance. I'm beginning to think that my earlier comment about E-cores ring bus/L3 access contention issues may be off track. It may be that the P cores just really aren't that good as implemented here.

511 · Oct 27, 2024

cebri1 said:
Deliding reduces temps by 20C :O

Edit: WTF
View attachment 110397

Source

为啥intel CPU打游戏开始落后了？酷睿Ultra游戏倒退原因解析_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

喜欢我的视频记得一键三连哦, 视频播放量 220692、弹幕量 1517、点赞数 13112、投硬币枚数 1785、收藏人数 1616、转发人数 1024, 视频作者阿狸才不是受, 作者简介...

m.bilibili.com

Hulk · Oct 27, 2024

There is something worth considering when comparing the 285K to the 14900K and that is cooling. Without a good sample, a fair bit of tuning, and a good cooling solution (think AIO 360) you are not going to get 5.5GHz all-core out of a 14900K under heavy load, which of course is when you need that frequency. A 14900K at stock settings from the VID table programmed into the average 14900K you're looking at around 5GHz and 225W.

If on the other hand a 285K at 225W can maintain 5.4GHz with air cooling then ARL now has the IPC and the frequency advantage over Raptor Lake. Yes, I understand that gaming presents a more bursty and less all-core intensive load so the 14900K will probably still be on top but if all you are looking for is productivity then ARL could be a good solution.

Then again there is that pesky 9950X that is as fast or faster in many applications and even more efficient.

My point is that in the real world the 285K looks to be a big step up. Again, Intel created all of this nonsense over the last few years by pushing Raptor into supernova energy territory.

mikk · Oct 27, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Cypress Cove: 18%
Willow Cove: 0%
Golden Cove: 19%
Redwood Cove: 0%(arguably minus)
Lion Cove: ~10%

Based on this trajectory Cougar Cove is the 0% shrink and Panther Cove is maybe 10%.

Do you know Exist is saying that 20A was so bad that it would have resulted in a worse Arrowlake?

It should be much easier for Panther/Coyote Cove just by using a next gen tile/fabric design. Even without any core related gains it could gain a few percent and for gaming much more. In the longer-term hopefully Cove will be shut down in favour of the Atom based unified core. Exist50 said there is at least one generation coming after Nova Lake with P+E cores (could be a tick from Nova Lake). I wonder if this is Razer Lake.

Hulk · Oct 27, 2024

What is the name of that review site again... Phoer... or something?

511 · Oct 27, 2024

Hulk said:
What is the name of that review site again... Phoer... or something?

Phoronix.com

lopri · Oct 27, 2024

cebri1 said:
Deliding reduces temps by 20C :O

Edit: WTF
View attachment 110397

5.20 GHz for the E cores are exceptional. I heard from someone who dealt with 11 samples that only one of them had its E cores hitting 5.0 GHz+. But I think he also said the voltages were limited, so it could also be a BIOS limitation.

511 · Oct 27, 2024

They would have better gone for a 32E core clocked at 4.6 Ghz all core costs less money to make than 8P+16E less embarassment vs Competition in Multi threaded no scheduling Issues at least has a clear win in some area

Ranulf · Oct 27, 2024

Japan is sold out!?

Intel Core Ultra 9 285K Sold Out In a Flash In Japan & Out of Stock In US Too, Retailers Confirm Supply Is Low

Intel Core Ultra 9 285K has seen good initial sales in the US & Japan's DIY market but the total shipped volume to retailers isn't high.

wccftech.com

Oh and Niktek weighs in on the launch and "on Par" or parity issues.

controlflow · Oct 27, 2024

Would like to see more reviews and testing on this type of thing:

为啥intel CPU打游戏开始落后了？酷睿Ultra游戏倒退原因解析_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

喜欢我的视频记得一键三连哦, 视频播放量 429222、弹幕量 2438、点赞数 20069、投硬币枚数 3007、收藏人数 2613、转发人数 1701, 视频作者阿狸才不是受, 作者简介不卖电脑！微博：显卡姬阿狸，相关视频：史上最强游戏CPU！9800X3D首发评测，当你用着7800x3d而你的好兄弟买了14700k，蹦蹦跳跳真可爱，终于找到了英特尔CPU缩缸的原因！如何自救？，李金铭解释不再拍戏的原因：我的时代已经过去，打游戏千万不要选7800X3D！不然你永远也体会不到149K的游戏体验！，黑色丝绒吊带裙杀疯了！，Ultra二代CPU上市...

www.bilibili.com

Pretty sure scheduling is a significant problem in ARL for many kinds of light to medium workloads.

Hitman928 · Oct 27, 2024

controlflow said:
Would like to see more reviews and testing on this type of thing:

为啥intel CPU打游戏开始落后了？酷睿Ultra游戏倒退原因解析_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

喜欢我的视频记得一键三连哦, 视频播放量 429222、弹幕量 2438、点赞数 20069、投硬币枚数 3007、收藏人数 2613、转发人数 1701, 视频作者阿狸才不是受, 作者简介不卖电脑！微博：显卡姬阿狸，相关视频：史上最强游戏CPU！9800X3D首发评测，当你用着7800x3d而你的好兄弟买了14700k，蹦蹦跳跳真可爱，终于找到了英特尔CPU缩缸的原因！如何自救？，李金铭解释不再拍戏的原因：我的时代已经过去，打游戏千万不要选7800X3D！不然你永远也体会不到149K的游戏体验！，黑色丝绒吊带裙杀疯了！，Ultra二代CPU上市...

www.bilibili.com

Pretty sure scheduling is a significant problem in ARL for many kinds of light to medium workloads.

Capframex on twitter isn't an unbiased source but heavily favors Intel, so if there is a config that will show Intel in a much better light, he would shout it from the roof tops. He tested multiple different core configurations and showed results, 6+8 seemed to give the best performance, for whatever reason, at least for Cyberpunk. The difference was less than 10% though and 8+0 gave the worst performance. He mentioned that he tested 1P+16E like the video but it didn't improve performance like shown in the video. From this and the other results we have, it doesn't look like a scheduling issue to me but probably an issue with the cache hierarchy / ring.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850492250351862038

In regards to 1+16 config testing:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850569501349163011

Hulk · Oct 27, 2024

controlflow said:
Would like to see more reviews and testing on this type of thing:

为啥intel CPU打游戏开始落后了？酷睿Ultra游戏倒退原因解析_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

喜欢我的视频记得一键三连哦, 视频播放量 429222、弹幕量 2438、点赞数 20069、投硬币枚数 3007、收藏人数 2613、转发人数 1701, 视频作者阿狸才不是受, 作者简介不卖电脑！微博：显卡姬阿狸，相关视频：史上最强游戏CPU！9800X3D首发评测，当你用着7800x3d而你的好兄弟买了14700k，蹦蹦跳跳真可爱，终于找到了英特尔CPU缩缸的原因！如何自救？，李金铭解释不再拍戏的原因：我的时代已经过去，打游戏千万不要选7800X3D！不然你永远也体会不到149K的游戏体验！，黑色丝绒吊带裙杀疯了！，Ultra二代CPU上市...

www.bilibili.com

Pretty sure scheduling is a significant problem in ARL for many kinds of light to medium workloads.

Is there a way to translate this?

AcrosTinus · Oct 27, 2024

This is from Reddit.
Will be returning my U9_285K as soon as it is delivered next week.

I live on Optane, thought this would not be affected but alas...

gaav87 · Oct 27, 2024

lopri said:
I am now interested in which of the P/E cores were cut on 245K. (and 265K to a lesser extent)

Why even with 6p+8e its 15% slower then 13700k and 20% then 7800x3d ?

Saylick · Oct 27, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
This is from Reddit.
Will be returning my U9_285K as soon as it is delivered next week.

I live on Optane, thought this would not be affected but alas...

Out of curiosity, do you have the 905p? I recall it being on sale on Newegg for $300 USD. 1.5 TB, too.

AcrosTinus · Oct 27, 2024

Saylick said:
Out of curiosity, do you have the 905p? I recall it being on sale on Newegg for $300 USD. 1.5 TB, too.

In my now headless main system (no CPU), I have a P5800X 400GB as boot, 2x900P 280GB in software Raid0, a P4800x 750Gb and yes the 905P 1,5TB, though I got it for 450 here in Germany.

Thunder 57 · Oct 27, 2024

I know I'm a bit late posting this as you posted this a few pages ago but I felt it was important enough and needed sharing. I was on TPU the other day reading about ARL and somebody in the comments posted this image. They certainly won the internet that day. Somebody commented saying as much.

SiliconFly said:
And it's the same Pat who fired Raja Koduri thus putting Intel Graphics division years behind competition.

desrever · Oct 27, 2024

Pat's definitely never at fault with anything that Intel does since he was only CEO for 3 years and he can't influence anything. AMD is in the rear view mirror and never again in the windshield, apple is just a lifestyle company and 5 nodes in 4 years is going great!

"Just wait for 18A" 🤡

cebri1 · Oct 27, 2024

desrever said:
Pat's definitely never at fault with anything that Intel does since he was only CEO for 3 years and he can't influence anything. AMD is in the rear view mirror and never again in the windshield, apple is just a lifestyle company and 5 nodes in 4 years is going great!

"Just wait for 18A" 🤡

How long does it take to design and validate a new architecture? How long does it take to design a new node? I dun't know, maybe you are just ignorant.

Tigerick · Oct 27, 2024

cebri1 said:
How long does it take to design and validate a new architecture? How long does it take to design a new node? I dun't know, maybe you are just ignorant.

Well, IFS said 30 months, I hope your math will answer the question ...

cebri1 · Oct 27, 2024

Tigerick said:
View attachment 110426

Well, IFS said 30 months, I hope your math will answer the question ...

Arrow Lake is pre Pat, and yes it does. You are clearly ignorant.

DavidC1 · Oct 27, 2024

Kepler_L2 said:
AFAIK 20A ARL-S samples had an FMax of 5.0 GHz.

That's horrible. So 20A is essentially at best a 10nm node used in Cannonlake.

Exist seems to be absolutely trashing Intel.
-Pat isn't MBA level bad, but not exactly the "savior" that people were looking for. Like overinvesting during inflated days.
-Based on results, even Skymont is far behind competition. ARM is just steamrolling over it. Lunarlake is just ok.
-Out of all the poop, the stinkiest one is P core and Lion Cove.
-Fab is way worse than Design. Split will essentially guarantee AMD/GF situation, with the fab part dying without customers in a few years.
-20A, regardless of high level advantages such as PowerVia and RibbonFET is complete trash. I have to agree. Execution differences can dwarf any high level differences.

Other guys say the problems aren't limited to Intel. AMD is seriously behind too.

He has been right on many things so far. It'll take something extraordinary to reverse the situation.

cebri1 said:
Arrow Lake is pre Pat, and yes it does. You are clearly ignorant.

Sorry but at this point in time, management under Gelsinger is partly at fault. Not fully, but it's not zero.

Remember this is now, before the effect of massive cuts, separation packages, and layoffs. Why did it happen? Because his team absolutely miscalculated in 2021 and over-invested. They should have cut share buybacks, dividends, and cut redundant parts of development(such as Hot Lots they like to quote) back then.

The future of x86 is still in doubt.

cebri1 · Oct 27, 2024

GNR on a 2019 roadmap. maybe it's Pat's fault too. But probably people in this forum can do a turnaround of a company with a broken culture and 140K people easily, maybe they should sign up for the job.

EDIT: Intel also signed two contracts with TSCM in 2020, and in Jan 2021, pre-Pat, made the order for N3B (Arrow's Lake Node). But yeah, it's 30 month since he took over... LOL

igor_kavinski · Oct 27, 2024

cebri1 said:
But probably people in this forum can do a turnaround of a company with a broken culture and 140K people easily, maybe they should sign up for the job.

I bet Elon Musk would be happy to take that job and then we would be left with Intel being run with a skeleton crew of 14k people aided by Elon's AI cloud...

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Senior member

Attachments

Diamond Member

Golden Member

Golden Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Golden Member

Elite Member

Golden Member

Platinum Member

Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Member

Attachments

Member

Diamond Member

Member

Diamond Member

Senior member

Senior member

Senior member

Senior member

Golden Member

Senior member

Lifer