Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E012 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4TSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15



Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



 

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poke01

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Dead? No. But it doesn't take a fortune teller to see market trends. ARM is making inroads into DC. It's making inroads into client. AMD and Intel will milk x86 as long as possible because its duopoly / exclusion is to their advantage.

But where do you see x86/ARM marketshare split in client and DC in 2030? 2040? And when AMD Intel eventually have to make their own ARM chips, now they don't have an exclusive ISA to give them an advantage. The number of direct competitors increase, and how does that marketshare split look? And the history of ARM doesn't really matter or the inner workings of how x86 breaks down instructions into more RISC like bites: What matters is what software is compiled to run on.

What does Graviton signal for the industry? Microsoft making a custom ARM chip? If a lot of the big hyperscalers are going to custom ARM chips designed in house, or see CPUs as nothing more than a necessary middleman to run large Nvidia dGPU / accelerator clusters, where does that leave Intel/AMD in 10+ years?

Point is that the overall market is changing. Foundry affords more growth opportunities than Intel trying to claw back their previously lost marketshare - and that's never happening. Intel won't ever be returning to the previous marketshares they held in client in DC, so I don't see why dropping fabs to chase that would be in their best interest (what others are saying, not you)
I sorta agree with you but companies like AMD/Intel will have x86 processors alongside ARM/RISC-V. There will be a lot software still dependant on x86.

I don’t see x86 going away on desktops but on laptops it’s share will declines over the coming decades to RISC-V/ARM.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
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Try the AMD platform, Hulk. One shouldn’t reward mediocrity and that is what ARL is as a whole.
AMD has a better upgrade path as well. The 9950X3D next year is one of those paths.

You can always go back to Intel when Nova lake comes and you will also have an AMD board that is likely capable of Zen6.

I still have PTSD from AM5 platform at launch when I kept getting audio dropouts and USB instability. Swapped my CPU between a 7950X and 7900X, and swapped boards, used 5 different sets of USB keyboards and mice and they all kept dropping out. I was hoping it would be fixed by now so I could jump on a 9950X3D system when it comes out, but then a couple weeks ago on MLID’s Q&A people were still emailing in about this problem on their AM5 platforms.

I’m another one of those people who honestly would rather buy a 285K as bad as it is and justify it because of the benefits of the Wintel alliance than touch anything involving AM5 at this point. Hoping AM6 comes sooner rather than later.
 

dr1337

Senior member
May 25, 2020
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But it doesn't take a fortune teller to see market trends.
IDK maybe it does because apparently some people don't understand how google, ampere and amazon all do what they do. RISC vs CISC has no impact other than adding one more stage to a chip and ARM literally runs UOPs anyways so its not functionally different from x86 other than it has slightly less instructions. Even if ARM can decode some instructions faster, why couldn't any CISC design copy the same functions in its decoders? Do you know what an FPGA is and why its relevant? Have you ever heard of arduino or raspberry pi? Have you ever wondered why there are so many different types of processors out there running at all different kinds of bit depths and clock speeds? Because its about the market. None of these other companies are making high performance ARM chips, they're all budget solutions to reduce operational expenditures for working in simple server transactions.

The whole reason why AMD and Intel are even relevant isn't due their cost/size, or their sheer performance/watt, but their relative market segment. There are a ton of people who want to have fast PCs to run their programs quick. Someone could potentially make an ARM cpu that clocks high and has some sort of x86 translation layer, but even so there is really nothing physical from x86 having that same performance and just executing code natively. Same goes for a laptop. I'm sure an apple silicon mac might have better battery life than my lenovo, but unless I want to spend as much money as a USED AUTOMOBILE, it won't perform the same and software selection is quite different. So why would I give these ARM companies money for a worse product? I don't host a high view rate server or anything so why would I ever want to buy something like graviton? I want a CPU with high ST performance that runs all the programs I like and also can be versatile in other things without jumping through hoops.

Also I want to mention too that there's a reason why Amazon and Google aren't trying to sell their chips, and its not due to security. Its because the business of marketing products and giving customer support comes with a ton of overhead. Unless you're a company on their scale who actually needs special processors, they have basically nobody to sell to with a lot of cost to them. LIke sure maybe there's a day where Microsoft has cheapo ARM chips for slow server processing, but still pays for faster CPUs in their training clusters and high compute-demand related services. And until someone in ARM really goes head to head with x86, the market trend says this CISC ISA is here to stay.
I don’t see x86 going away on desktops but on laptops it’s share will declines over the coming decades to RISC-V/ARM.
I really don't see ARM breaking through in laptops, tablets and phones are also extremely fast for basic web browsing tasks and even light gaming. Like, I have had a ton of laptops over the years, and I personally wish they could have all been as fast as my desktop. This meme about ARM popping up is always so ridiculous to me. Think about it like this, people are upset with core ultra 200 right now right? You think customers are excited for CPUs even slower than intel's current release? Just because they last as long as an iPad from 6 years ago? Nah.

I don't hate ARM at all but I hate this delusion that its somehow got inherent leverage from its physics alone. Its all about the market segments. Nobody targets high perf ARM chips because unless you're already inside a walled garden with non-stop updates like android or macos/ios, people want to run their old code. Just like how there isn't any movement or desire to port windows to a raspberry pi or like why the Amiga A1222 exists at all. Same goes for apple, nobody mass market is buying a mac because of the chip, they buy it because of the OS and the ecosystem. Hence why literally every intel mac owner doesn't mind shelling out a bunch of money for slightly cooler temps and more battery life, they aren't concerned with software unlike most other consumers in the PC markets.

also idk how ISA talk is at all related to this thread lol, I find it extremely hard to believe ARM will actually be relevant to the x86 core market, let alone intels desires to maintain their IP.
 
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Although I'm seriously considering the 9950X, which would be my first AMD system. The 9950X is just so strong everywhere. The allure with ARL for me is all of the fun testing and tweaking I can do with the P's and E's. Because honestly both are more than fast enough for me.
9950X3D may turn out to have better binned silicon and beat 9950X in most benchmarks. So that's almost 4 to 5 months wait. You could get 265K but since you like E-cores so much, 285K would be better suited for you. It's however harder to get and may not be completely stable according to reports. Seems it would be better to wait for the time being, until at least March or April 2025.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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Let's recap what we know so far about ARL performance:
  • the slow L3 is considered to be one of the performance handicaps of this gen
  • mem controller being one tile away does not help either, probably adds to performance inconsistency
  • Windows and ARL don't get along at all for now: driver issues, probable thread scheduling issues, iGPU issues, possible stability issues with high mem speeds (mem issues usually get straightened out fast with UEFI updates)
  • DLVR is a mixed bag - helps light threaded apps and gaming, hurts heavy MT loads where efficiency takes a nosedive (DLVR efficiency that is)
The worst part about this gen is the inconsistent performance in productivity apps. The gaming performance caught me off-guard as I was not expecting this collapse, but the productivity roller-coaster is the reason I'll ignore ARL completely for a new build. I had high hopes for the 245K to be a strong value option, yet it proves to be just a side-grade for my 12700K. No thanks, Steve.

I think Steve missed that the 12700k is the real price/perf winner from his data charts. At $219 in USA stores anyway.
Both Intel and AMD are making it very hard for me to spend money on a system upgrade this year. Just one more launch left I guess, worst case I can just buy a new cooler for my 12700K so I can have something to tinker during holidays.

What a sad year for x86.
 
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Both Intel and AMD are making it very hard for me to spend money on a system upgrade this year. Just one more launch left I guess, worst case I can just buy a new cooler for my 12700K so I can have something to tinker during holidays.
I'm in the exact same boat. Gotta wait till April or May next year to see what better options, if any, become available for upgrading. Arrow Lake will soon get discounted anyway if Intel likes money coming in so buying it right now would be kinda dumb unless someone wants to support Intel out of the sheer goodness of their heart.
 

Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
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I still have PTSD from AM5 platform at launch when I kept getting audio dropouts and USB instability. Swapped my CPU between a 7950X and 7900X, and swapped boards, used 5 different sets of USB keyboards and mice and they all kept dropping out. I was hoping it would be fixed by now so I could jump on a 9950X3D system when it comes out, but then a couple weeks ago on MLID’s Q&A people were still emailing in about this problem on their AM5 platforms.

I’m another one of those people who honestly would rather buy a 285K as bad as it is and justify it because of the benefits of the Wintel alliance than touch anything involving AM5 at this point. Hoping AM6 comes sooner rather than later.
I myself do not find the first gen AM5 stuff attractive and I do not like they just decided not to upgrade the platform for the second year, they just renamed the chipset.

I am now testing Z890 board (strix E with seven m.2 slots) and I honestly like it a lot, I am not sure what am I going to do with it.
 
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Of course, if you make 17M / Year, you should be able to fart rainbows on cloudy days and produce technicolor unicorns at will .
Someone like Elon Musk (though not the current version of him) who can get to the bottom of things through extensive reading and conversations with engineers, would be happy to do the job for even a third of that salary. Intel pinning their hopes on Pat makes zero sense to me. It's like someone else here said that he's just a puppet being controlled by powerful political factions inside the company.
 
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I am now testing Z890 board (strix E with seven m.2 slots) and I honestly like it a lot, I am not sure what am I going to do with it.
RAID obviously. And yes, it seems on the Intel side even boring mobos look kinda exciting but on AM5, you gotta put down serious money to get something nice. I had my heart set on ASROCK NOVA ITX.
 

moinmoin

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Jun 1, 2017
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If a lot of the big hyperscalers are going to custom ARM chips designed in house, or see CPUs as nothing more than a necessary middleman to run large Nvidia dGPU / accelerator clusters, where does that leave Intel/AMD in 10+ years?
Regardless of the CPU manufacturer I sure hope we won't have a future where hyperscalers doing their CPUs in-house are the only source for servers in general.
 

maddogmcgee

Senior member
Apr 20, 2015
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RAID obviously. And yes, it seems on the Intel side even boring mobos look kinda exciting but on AM5, you gotta put down serious money to get something nice. I had my heart set on ASROCK NOVA ITX.
That's because Intel pays mobo makers to restrict certain colours to Intel boards......hopefully this marketing expense gets the chop after they finish reducing the fruit.
 

511

Golden Member
Jul 12, 2024
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Dead? No. But it doesn't take a fortune teller to see market trends. ARM is making inroads into DC. It's making inroads into client. AMD and Intel will milk x86 as long as possible because its duopoly / exclusion is to their advantage.

But where do you see x86/ARM marketshare split in client and DC in 2030? 2040? And when AMD Intel eventually have to make their own ARM chips, now they don't have an exclusive ISA to give them an advantage. The number of direct competitors increase, and how does that marketshare split look? And the history of ARM doesn't really matter or the inner workings of how x86 breaks down instructions into more RISC like bites: What matters is what software is compiled to run on.

What does Graviton signal for the industry? Microsoft making a custom ARM chip? If a lot of the big hyperscalers are going to custom ARM chips designed in house, or see CPUs as nothing more than a necessary middleman to run large Nvidia dGPU / accelerator clusters, where does that leave Intel/AMD in 10+ years?
Intel is going foundry no matter who designs chip you need a foundry most hyperscaler are also Intel Clients so there is an advantage they can fab their Custom chips at Intel Amazon,MSFT has already announced a custom chip on 18A
 
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Igorslab with Win11 24H2 has only two games where Arrow Lake turns in exceptional performance:



That TW:Troy performance shows that ARL packs some serious MT muscle that's not visible in a lot of other applications/games due to careless engineering manifesting as scheduling/latency issues etc.
 

poke01

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2022
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That TW:Troy performance shows that ARL packs some serious MT muscle that's not visible in a lot of other applications/games due to careless engineering manifesting as scheduling/latency issues etc.
Cinebench2024 shows the CPU core is good, it’s everything else that’s ****

MTL IP should never have made it to arrow lake.
 
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MS_AT

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Jul 15, 2024
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Even if ARM can decode some instructions faster, why couldn't any CISC design copy the same functions in its decoders?
Because ARM doesn't need to find how long an instruction is, it's always 4 Bytes. x64 instructions are from 1 Byte to 15 Bytes long so decoder needs to figure out instruction boundaries and this cannot be done in parallel. Once you mark the boundaries then you can decode in parallel as ARM is doing. At least to my layman understanding.

That TW:Troy performance shows that ARL packs some serious MT muscle that's not visible in a lot of other applications/games due to careless engineering manifesting as scheduling/latency issues etc.
Or due to magical set of circumstances that happened on Igor's PC But this could give some insight
as it seems they have tried to optimize the engine for hyrbrid? [I haven't watched it myself yet, so just guessing based on the name "Optimizing for Hybrid in Total War: WARHAMMER III | Intel® Game Dev All Access 2023 | Intel Software", Troy is supposed to use the same engine]
 
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MTL IP should never have made it to arrow lake.
It shows they had no backup plan. Had they created a monolithic HT-enabled 6P+12E Lion Cove/Skymont on Intel 7, it could've fit into the LGA1851 die size constraints and they would've had something to keep their fabs busy too. And the gaming performance wouldn't have regressed and it would've performed well enough in MT to at least match 14900K or even KS. Yeah, power and heat would've been roughly the same or slightly worse but typical Intel users don't seem to care that much about that, do they?
 

511

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Jul 12, 2024
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It shows they had no backup plan. Had they created a monolithic HT-enabled 6P+12E q Cove/Skymont on Intel 7, it could've fit into the LGA1851 die size constraints and they would've had something to keep their fabs busy too. And the gaming performance wouldn't have regressed and it would've performed well enough in MT to at least match 14900K or even KS. Yeah, power and heat would've been roughly the same or slightly worse but typical Intel users don't seem to care that much about that, do they?
If they had backup could have created it on Intel 3 mono die since the HP Library density is similar I would assume the area increased would not be that high
 
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Kocicak

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It shows they had no backup plan. Had they created a monolithic HT-enabled 6P+12E Lion Cove/Skymont on Intel 7, it could've fit into the LGA1851 die size constraints ...
They still can build something monolithic for desktop from existing building blocks for desktop, which would not have problem with latencies. I would personally drop the AI block from it and replace it with more integrated graphic cores.

I am not sure they know they need to go the extra mile and try harder when they are in a bad situation.
 

OneEng2

Senior member
Sep 19, 2022
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Is the issue with LNC L3 latency and/or bandwidth and or latency/bandwidth to main memory?
My guess (based on benchmarking evidence and discussions) is that the latency is the problem. It actually looks like the bandwidth is exceptional based on how well CB2024 does. In fact, I believe that the processors memory bandwidth overall is one of the greatest strengths of the architecture.

Sadly for Intel, latency is often more important. Nothing shows this more than the game benchmarks.
Dead? No. But it doesn't take a fortune teller to see market trends. ARM is making inroads into DC. It's making inroads into client. AMD and Intel will milk x86 as long as possible because its duopoly / exclusion is to their advantage.

But where do you see x86/ARM marketshare split in client and DC in 2030? 2040? And when AMD Intel eventually have to make their own ARM chips, now they don't have an exclusive ISA to give them an advantage. The number of direct competitors increase, and how does that marketshare split look? And the history of ARM doesn't really matter or the inner workings of how x86 breaks down instructions into more RISC like bites: What matters is what software is compiled to run on.

What does Graviton signal for the industry? Microsoft making a custom ARM chip? If a lot of the big hyperscalers are going to custom ARM chips designed in house, or see CPUs as nothing more than a necessary middleman to run large Nvidia dGPU / accelerator clusters, where does that leave Intel/AMD in 10+ years?

Point is that the overall market is changing. Foundry affords more growth opportunities than Intel trying to claw back their previously lost marketshare - and that's never happening. Intel won't ever be returning to the previous marketshares they held in client in DC, so I don't see why dropping fabs to chase that would be in their best interest (what others are saying, not you)
I see ARM making inroads in thin and light laptops, and simple data center (cheap) applications. I think x86 will continue to dominate desktop, desktop replacement, and 70-90% of the DC market through 2035.
I sorta agree with you but companies like AMD/Intel will have x86 processors alongside ARM/RISC-V. There will be a lot software still dependant on x86.

I don’t see x86 going away on desktops but on laptops it’s share will declines over the coming decades to RISC-V/ARM.
Legacy software ALONE would make x86 ISA's future guaranteed for another 10 years.

I agree with "Laptops", but only thin and light. Where desktop replacements are needed, I think x86 may well remain dominant.
Cinebench2024 shows the CPU core is good, it’s everything else that’s ****

MTL IP should never have made it to arrow lake.
I think Cinebench 2024 shows the remarkable bandwidth of the new Intel platform. Yes, the processing is also impressive; however, the processing for rendering isn't that complex and lends itself to matrix/vector bulk processing instructions I believe.
 

MoistOintment

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Jul 31, 2024
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It shows they had no backup plan. Had they created a monolithic HT-enabled 6P+12E Lion Cove/Skymont on Intel 7, it could've fit into the LGA1851 die size constraints and they would've had something to keep their fabs busy too. And the gaming performance wouldn't have regressed and it would've performed well enough in MT to at least match 14900K or even KS. Yeah, power and heat would've been roughly the same or slightly worse but typical Intel users don't seem to care that much about that, do they?
The whole point of LNC was industry standard tooling and PDKs and all that. So how would porting LNC to Intel 7, which doesn't use those, have worked?

LNC on Intel 7 sounds like it would've been a RKL situation all of again.

If Intel was very going to make a monolithic LNC/SKT CPU, it would've been on the only viable node they have for that: Intel 3
 
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MoistOintment

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IDK maybe it does because apparently some people don't understand how google, ampere and amazon all do what they do. RISC vs CISC has no impact other than adding one more stage to a chip and ARM literally runs UOPs anyways so its not functionally different from x86 other than it has slightly less instructions. Even if ARM can decode some instructions faster, why couldn't any CISC design copy the same functions in its decoders? Do you know what an FPGA is and why its relevant? Have you ever heard of arduino or raspberry pi? Have you ever wondered why there are so many different types of processors out there running at all different kinds of bit depths and clock speeds? Because its about the market. None of these other companies are making high performance ARM chips, they're all budget solutions to reduce operational expenditures for working in simple server transactions.

The whole reason why AMD and Intel are even relevant isn't due their cost/size, or their sheer performance/watt, but their relative market segment. There are a ton of people who want to have fast PCs to run their programs quick. Someone could potentially make an ARM cpu that clocks high and has some sort of x86 translation layer, but even so there is really nothing physical from x86 having that same performance and just executing code natively. Same goes for a laptop. I'm sure an apple silicon mac might have better battery life than my lenovo, but unless I want to spend as much money as a USED AUTOMOBILE, it won't perform the same and software selection is quite different. So why would I give these ARM companies money for a worse product? I don't host a high view rate server or anything so why would I ever want to buy something like graviton? I want a CPU with high ST performance that runs all the programs I like and also can be versatile in other things without jumping through hoops.

Also I want to mention too that there's a reason why Amazon and Google aren't trying to sell their chips, and its not due to security. Its because the business of marketing products and giving customer support comes with a ton of overhead. Unless you're a company on their scale who actually needs special processors, they have basically nobody to sell to with a lot of cost to them. LIke sure maybe there's a day where Microsoft has cheapo ARM chips for slow server processing, but still pays for faster CPUs in their training clusters and high compute-demand related services. And until someone in ARM really goes head to head with x86, the market trend says this CISC ISA is here to stay.

I really don't see ARM breaking through in laptops, tablets and phones are also extremely fast for basic web browsing tasks and even light gaming. Like, I have had a ton of laptops over the years, and I personally wish they could have all been as fast as my desktop. This meme about ARM popping up is always so ridiculous to me. Think about it like this, people are upset with core ultra 200 right now right? You think customers are excited for CPUs even slower than intel's current release? Just because they last as long as an iPad from 6 years ago? Nah.

I don't hate ARM at all but I hate this delusion that its somehow got inherent leverage from its physics alone. Its all about the market segments. Nobody targets high perf ARM chips because unless you're already inside a walled garden with non-stop updates like android or macos/ios, people want to run their old code. Just like how there isn't any movement or desire to port windows to a raspberry pi or like why the Amiga A1222 exists at all. Same goes for apple, nobody mass market is buying a mac because of the chip, they buy it because of the OS and the ecosystem. Hence why literally every intel mac owner doesn't mind shelling out a bunch of money for slightly cooler temps and more battery life, they aren't concerned with software unlike most other consumers in the PC markets.

also idk how ISA talk is at all related to this thread lol, I find it extremely hard to believe ARM will actually be relevant to the x86 core market, let alone intels desires to maintain their IP.
Your technical explanation misses the most important advantage ARM has over x86: the ability for it to be licensed out for other companies to design their own chips.

X86 being unique to Intel/AMD is a strength for Intel/AMD - not for the ISA. If a company wants to design a cheap, internal, custom solution for their needs, then x86 isn't a choice.

And now that we're at a point where this has become technically viable, it does both a threat to Intel's (and AMD's) business model.

The point isn't to discuss the merits of the ISA, but how Intel's future business strategy has to account for this threat. Fab first hedges against that threat, where even if a company drops x86, Intel Fab is always a (potential, hypothetical) option for that chip.

Design first is a strategy that, best case scenario, results in Intel reclaiming their previously held market share.
 
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