Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E012 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4TSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15



Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



 

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eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
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9950X3D may turn out to have better binned silicon and beat 9950X in most benchmarks. So that's almost 4 to 5 months wait. You could get 265K but since you like E-cores so much, 285K would be better suited for you. It's however harder to get and may not be completely stable according to reports. Seems it would be better to wait for the time being, until at least March or April 2025.
Intel is actually releasing a follow-up to Alder Lake N that has Skymont cores. Unfortunately they are treating it as low end again. IMO they should have launched something mid-high end with 16-32 Skymont cores. I suspect it would be quite a performer.
 

sgs_x86

Junior Member
Dec 20, 2020
12
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Intel is actually releasing a follow-up to Alder Lake N that has Skymont cores. Unfortunately they are treating it as low end again. IMO they should have launched something mid-high end with 16-32 Skymont cores. I suspect it would be quite a performer.
Follow up to ADL-N is a refresh of ADL-N called Twin Lake. There is no E-core only cpu based on Skymont.
 

AcrosTinus

Member
Jun 23, 2024
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So I'm back on a 14900K for just 360 bucks.
Intel has until 2027 to surprise me, even a updated HEDT platform by that time would be acceptable.

Hopefully they can deliver otherwise, I might just move my everyday compute to a mac studio or mini and let the Wintel box fade away...
 

gdansk

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,110
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So I'm back on a 14900K for just 360 bucks.
Intel has until 2027 to surprise me, even a updated HEDT platform by that time would be acceptable.

Hopefully they can deliver otherwise, I might just move my everyday compute to a mac studio or mini and let the Wintel box fade away...
14900K, if not electro-mitigated, is a perfectly good chip. No need to upgrade. I guess Intel and AMD conspired to be kind to our wallets 2024-2025.
 

perry mason

Junior Member
Oct 29, 2024
3
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IDK maybe it does because apparently some people don't understand how google, ampere and amazon all do what they do. RISC vs CISC has no impact other than adding one more stage to a chip and ARM literally runs UOPs anyways so its not functionally different from x86 other than it has slightly less instructions. Even if ARM can decode some instructions faster, why couldn't any CISC design copy the same functions in its decoders? Do you know what an FPGA is and why its relevant? Have you ever heard of arduino or raspberry pi? Have you ever wondered why there are so many different types of processors out there running at all different kinds of bit depths and clock speeds? Because its about the market. None of these other companies are making high performance ARM chips, they're all budget solutions to reduce operational expenditures for working in simple server transactions.

.............

I really don't see ARM breaking through in laptops, tablets and phones are also extremely fast for basic web browsing tasks and even light gaming. Like, I have had a ton of laptops over the years, and I personally wish they could have all been as fast as my desktop. This meme about ARM popping up is always so ridiculous to me. Think about it like this, people are upset with core ultra 200 right now right? You think customers are excited for CPUs even slower than intel's current release? Just because they last as long as an iPad from 6 years ago? Nah.

I don't hate ARM at all but I hate this delusion that its somehow got inherent leverage from its physics alone. Its all about the market segments. Nobody targets high perf ARM chips because unless you're already inside a walled garden with non-stop updates like android or macos/ios, people want to run their old code. Just like how there isn't any movement or desire to port windows to a raspberry pi or like why the Amiga A1222 exists at all. Same goes for apple, nobody mass market is buying a mac because of the chip, they buy it because of the OS and the ecosystem. Hence why literally every intel mac owner doesn't mind shelling out a bunch of money for slightly cooler temps and more battery life, they aren't concerned with software unlike most other consumers in the PC markets.
First time posting, but I've been a reader here since 1997. So I'm not new. But the unseriousness of this post compelled me to finally register after all these years.

I won't argue architectures, but ARM has already broken into laptops, and you apparently haven't been paying attention since 2020 because they are far more than light web-browsing machines. The M3 Max is a top-tier performer in a wide variety of normal user workloads - the benchmarks are readily available. It often uses 1-4-1/5 of the power of its competition for dozens of workloads! 1/5! The M1 Max itself may be the most revolutionary and memorable laptop in the last 15 years. A desktop replacement that seems to never get hot or turn on a fan (it does, in theory, but it's nigh unnoticeable).

And as for software under OS X, come on. Don't be silly. There's a tremendous and wide ecosystem. Not every workflow is doable, but the choices are nevertheless very broad. And, Windows itself doesn't cover every workload either.

As for PCs, the trends are moving away from x86. Qualcomm isn't done. AI processing is CPU agnostic. Microsoft is a serious company and they and Qualcomm both have invested hundreds of millions into the ARM experiment on Windows. It's also easy on a Macbook, by the way, to run Windows 11.

One can make the case that the Surface with the Snapdragon Elite is the best PC laptop option on the market for a professional user; at minimum, it's probably the coolest and quietest for anything at its performance level. That isn't "market segments." Furthermore, Lunar Lake and Meteor Lake are proof that one doesn't just shift market segments easily - the former is being hailed because it kind of matches the Macbook Air (lol). Intel has simply invested in other areas. Had they invested in efficiency...who knows. Maybe they would be a better M series competitor. Or maybe they never had it in them.

Taking a step back, the iPhone changed everything, good and bad (including culture!). Trends take time to develop, but consumer behavior and preferences around computing ain't about to go back to loud, noisy and hot. Desktops with any performance are passé outside of technical workloads in offices. 1.5 hour laptop workstations are also passé. Finally, the DIY gaming desktop is a regressing niche. A big niche, but a shrinking one all the same as the market metrics reveal. Note that the largest game market by revenue is far and away on phones.

My crystal ball tells me x86 will go the way of the dodo, and it may accelerate if/when Intel is acquired, something I reasonably expect in the next 2-3 years if the government doesn't block it. It's already easy to get 95% of the typical usage from Windows 11 ARM. That's a game-changing development. I personally run "old code" on that thing every day. Niche cases requiring deeper x86 compatibility will take a long time to die (hey, there are still Amiga users out there), but die they will when superior hardware just overwhelms with better options.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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My crystal ball tells me x86 will go the way of the dodo, and it may accelerate if/when Intel is acquired, something I reasonably expect in the next 2-3 years if the government doesn't block it. It's already easy to get 95% of the typical usage from Windows 11 ARM. That's a game-changing development. I personally run "old code" on that thing every day. Niche cases requiring deeper x86 compatibility will take a long time to die (hey, there are still Amiga users out there), but die they will when superior hardware just overwhelms with better options.
Not as quickly as you think, unless the typical x86 developers start porting their stuff to MacOS and Windows 11 ARM. Competition will certainly heat up. Good that Apple re-ignited the spark with M1 and they are able to execute till now without major problems but that doesn't mean the x86 incumbents are sitting still. Apple is useless to hardware tinkerers. Lack of customizations and no overclocking means everyone has the same old boring thing. Good and dependable for work but not as fun as even a Raspberry Pi.
 
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OneEng2

Member
Sep 19, 2022
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First time posting, but I've been a reader here since 1997. So I'm not new. But the unseriousness of this post compelled me to finally register after all these years.

I won't argue architectures, but ARM has already broken into laptops, and you apparently haven't been paying attention since 2020 because they are far more than light web-browsing machines. The M3 Max is a top-tier performer in a wide variety of normal user workloads - the benchmarks are readily available. It often uses 1-4-1/5 of the power of its competition for dozens of workloads! 1/5! The M1 Max itself may be the most revolutionary and memorable laptop in the last 15 years. A desktop replacement that seems to never get hot or turn on a fan (it does, in theory, but it's nigh unnoticeable).

And as for software under OS X, come on. Don't be silly. There's a tremendous and wide ecosystem. Not every workflow is doable, but the choices are nevertheless very broad. And, Windows itself doesn't cover every workload either.

As for PCs, the trends are moving away from x86. Qualcomm isn't done. AI processing is CPU agnostic. Microsoft is a serious company and they and Qualcomm both have invested hundreds of millions into the ARM experiment on Windows. It's also easy on a Macbook, by the way, to run Windows 11.

One can make the case that the Surface with the Snapdragon Elite is the best PC laptop option on the market for a professional user; at minimum, it's probably the coolest and quietest for anything at its performance level. That isn't "market segments." Furthermore, Lunar Lake and Meteor Lake are proof that one doesn't just shift market segments easily - the former is being hailed because it kind of matches the Macbook Air (lol). Intel has simply invested in other areas. Had they invested in efficiency...who knows. Maybe they would be a better M series competitor. Or maybe they never had it in them.

Taking a step back, the iPhone changed everything, good and bad (including culture!). Trends take time to develop, but consumer behavior and preferences around computing ain't about to go back to loud, noisy and hot. Desktops with any performance are passé outside of technical workloads in offices. 1.5 hour laptop workstations are also passé. Finally, the DIY gaming desktop is a regressing niche. A big niche, but a shrinking one all the same as the market metrics reveal. Note that the largest game market by revenue is far and away on phones.

My crystal ball tells me x86 will go the way of the dodo, and it may accelerate if/when Intel is acquired, something I reasonably expect in the next 2-3 years if the government doesn't block it. It's already easy to get 95% of the typical usage from Windows 11 ARM. That's a game-changing development. I personally run "old code" on that thing every day. Niche cases requiring deeper x86 compatibility will take a long time to die (hey, there are still Amiga users out there), but die they will when superior hardware just overwhelms with better options.
No offence, but it doesn't look like a blowout at all to me. In fact, it looks like a 12 core Zen 5 is beating a 14 core M3. Note: it is doing this from a process node behind (N4P vs N3E I believe).


I have a feeling I could find a few more if I looked, but the above comparison came up on my google search first.

Your belief that legacy software is of no concern is also greatly mistaken, as is your dismissal of HPC/Gaming. It seems like you are very willing to say that anything that the M3 does well is important, and things it doesn't do well just don't matter.

Pretty bad product plan if that is your thinking.

I think ARM will do very well in thin and light laptops in the not so distant future. Desktop replacement is unlikely for some time because of that whole legacy software and OS thing you so flippantly discarded. Desktop replacement laptops are dominated by business customers IIRC. You aren't just talking about new software here, you are talking about changing entire companies support, licensing, and infrastructure over.
 
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MS_AT

Senior member
Jul 15, 2024
311
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I think Cinebench 2024 shows the remarkable bandwidth of the new Intel platform. Yes, the processing is also impressive; however, the processing for rendering isn't that complex and lends itself to matrix/vector bulk processing instructions I believe.
If by bulk processing you mean SIMD/vector then nope. R24 is using mostly scalar math and this allows Skymont to shine.
The best we could do there is maybe use 48GB DIMMs or SODIMMs, unless they block those.
I would say it's more about bandwidth. Single channel gives you only so little and Skymont is supposed to be quite capable.
 

poke01

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2022
2,351
3,069
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let’s move all discussions about x86 vs arm in laptops to the laptop thread especially if it’s Apple/qualcomm

Edit:
 

perry mason

Junior Member
Oct 29, 2024
3
8
36
Not as quickly as you think, unless the typical x86 developers start porting their stuff to MacOS and Windows 11 ARM. Competition will certainly heat up. Good that Apple re-ignited the spark with M1 and they are able to execute till now without major problems but that doesn't mean the x86 incumbents are sitting still. Apple is useless to hardware tinkerers. Lack of customizations and no overclocking means everyone has the same old boring thing. Good and dependable for work but not as fun as even a Raspberry Pi.
Hey man, I sympathize. I'm a tinkerer too. But the tinkerer market has no comparable economy of scale for devices of today's level of sophistication. There aren't enough of us.

And respectfully, have you not noticed that even the tinkerer market, as a matter of sheer customer attention and purchasing volume, moved away from x86 boxes to Raspberry Pis, Arduinos and IoT devices more than 10 years ago? Yes, gamers and custom PCs are a big market. But in market terms it's a dog. A negative growth, legacy business.

I don't necessarily think a move from x86 is inevitable, although I think it likely, and I don't think it will be quick. I'm confident it won't be. But all I've seen is the changing pattern of usage since, frankly, the iPhone and the advent of low-power computing.

In homes, the mass market has tablets and phones, and then, really low-end crapware laptops. That's the volume. In the corporate office, it's the 1980's all over again. Dogsh*t laptops and desktops that essentially access remote environments and hosted data as terminals to servers. Security uber alles. Desktops you might see at an old car dealership. It's a legacy product for lower margin business.

So it doesn't take much to see that for whatever reason, the competing architectures are putting out a product that can provide the same functionality, with emulated compatibility, at a lower TCO, including lower power cost. I guarantee you AMD has various ARM projects in the work, by their own quiet admission here and there. Certainly, they are hedging their bets.

The DC and cloud storage are another type of market. It goes without saying that DC does nothing for the tinkerer at home. It's an industrial-scale product. Frankly, you might access it for it's AI prowess, from your low-power home device/phone/laptop. I expect x86 will be sticky for a time in the DC, so long as AMD in particular keeps maintaining its technological superiority. But competition is getting fiercer and there is a commodity element to the sort of workloads that a lot of data-center computing covers. It's not all high-end AI, of course.
 

SiliconFly

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2023
1,605
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First time posting, but I've been a reader here since 1997. So I'm not new. But the unseriousness of this post compelled me to finally register after all these years.
Glad that you're sharing your views after all these years. Pretty amazing actually!

I won't argue architectures, but ARM has already broken into laptops, and you apparently haven't been paying attention since 2020 because they are far more than light web-browsing machines.
ARM threat has been there for many more years than you mentioned. But it didn't manage to make even a small dent in the x86 laptop/desktop market yet. I'm talking about generic laptop ARM processors. Not Apple SoC. We'll get to that next.

The M3 Max is a top-tier performer in a wide variety of normal user workloads - the benchmarks are readily available. It often uses 1-4-1/5 of the power of its competition for dozens of workloads! 1/5! The M1 Max itself may be the most revolutionary and memorable laptop in the last 15 years. A desktop replacement that seems to never get hot or turn on a fan (it does, in theory, but it's nigh unnoticeable).
Apple products are vertically integrated and Apple Silicon is not available of other OEMs. Meaning, Apple Silicon is a competitor irrespective of the architecture (meaning, whether it's ARM or RISC-V or X86 won't make much of a difference).

For example, Apple would have come out with something much better than Lunar Lake if they were using x86 ISA in their SoC. So, let's not count Apple for the moment.

And as for software under OS X, come on. Don't be silly. There's a tremendous and wide ecosystem. Not every workflow is doable, but the choices are nevertheless very broad. And, Windows itself doesn't cover every workload either.
Some of it is true. But most businesses won't even bother to consider ARM at the moment due to compatibility issues. Windows X64 is king there. WoA or OS X not so much.

As for PCs, the trends are moving away from x86. Qualcomm isn't done. AI processing is CPU agnostic. Microsoft is a serious company and they and Qualcomm both have invested hundreds of millions into the ARM experiment on Windows. It's also easy on a Macbook, by the way, to run Windows 11.

One can make the case that the Surface with the Snapdragon Elite is the best PC laptop option on the market for a professional user; at minimum, it's probably the coolest and quietest for anything at its performance level.
The trends always appear to move. But not by much. Not much to make any serious difference.

And Qualcomm is almost done. They wouldn't have recovered even 10% of the money they spent developing Snapdragon X Elite. Not sure how much loss they made after it's massive flop.

And running Windows 11 on a VM in OS X, is exactly like running OS X on a VM in Windows 11. The experience is just horrible. Virtualization is no comparison to native. Nothing can beat native performance and compatibility.

Note that the largest game market by revenue is far and away on phones.
Angry birds is not games market. They're for kids.

My crystal ball tells me x86 will go the way of the dodo, and it may accelerate if/when Intel is acquired, something I reasonably expect in the next 2-3 years if the government doesn't block it. It's already easy to get 95% of the typical usage from Windows 11 ARM. That's a game-changing development. I personally run "old code" on that thing every day. Niche cases requiring deeper x86 compatibility will take a long time to die (hey, there are still Amiga users out there), but die they will when superior hardware just overwhelms with better options.
Your crystal ball has many bugs and needs a patch/update immediately.
 
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MoistOintment

Member
Jul 31, 2024
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Power to performance was not the focus, it's just the only thing they can really market about them.
Power efficiency was the focus and  also performance regression was not a goal. Both can be true. That in pursuit of power efficiency and disaggregation, something went wrong in the design and we're seeing performance regression that wasn't  planned.

this certainly isn't a defense of ARL. But the desktop parts are seeing mobile like levels of latency and poor ring clocks that lead to Intel pushing these few K SKUs well outside the efficiency curve.

ARL-H will be better received, but it certainly won't be game changing.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,611
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My guess (based on benchmarking evidence and discussions) is that the latency is the problem. It actually looks like the bandwidth is exceptional based on how well CB2024 does. In fact, I believe that the processors memory bandwidth overall is one of the greatest strengths of the architecture.

Sadly for Intel, latency is often more important. Nothing shows this more than the game benchmarks.

I see ARM making inroads in thin and light laptops, and simple data center (cheap) applications. I think x86 will continue to dominate desktop, desktop replacement, and 70-90% of the DC market through 2035.

Legacy software ALONE would make x86 ISA's future guaranteed for another 10 years.

I agree with "Laptops", but only thin and light. Where desktop replacements are needed, I think x86 may well remain dominant.

I think Cinebench 2024 shows the remarkable bandwidth of the new Intel platform. Yes, the processing is also impressive; however, the processing for rendering isn't that complex and lends itself to matrix/vector bulk processing instructions I believe.
It is possible that CB fits mostly in the L2 from a compute perspective? I don't think it needs to access large texture maps that would require fast memory access, outside of L2 that is.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,611
2,645
136
So I'm back on a 14900K for just 360 bucks.
Intel has until 2027 to surprise me, even a updated HEDT platform by that time would be acceptable.

Hopefully they can deliver otherwise, I might just move my everyday compute to a mac studio or mini and let the Wintel box fade away...
I see MC has them for $420 but where did you pick one up for $360?

The 14900K is future proofed with Intel's extended warranty. If it fails you get a new one or reimbursed. If it makes 5 years then good on you!
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,553
1,668
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Because ARM doesn't need to find how long an instruction is, it's always 4 Bytes. x64 instructions are from 1 Byte to 15 Bytes long so decoder needs to figure out instruction boundaries and this cannot be done in parallel. Once you mark the boundaries then you can decode in parallel as ARM is doing. At least to my layman understanding.


Or due to magical set of circumstances that happened on Igor's PC But this could give some insight
as it seems they have tried to optimize the engine for hyrbrid? [I haven't watched it myself yet, so just guessing based on the name "Optimizing for Hybrid in Total War: WARHAMMER III | Intel® Game Dev All Access 2023 | Intel Software", Troy is supposed to use the same engine]

Hah, optimization in TW Warhammer3. What a joke. That game has been a mess since release and Intel has been a sponsor of that game since I think its release. War3 was released with bugs that had been patched in War2 but because of dev sloppiness get back into TW3.

I don't remember if TW Troy had any serious performance issues, I think it was generally fine and was not made by the same team at CA who did the Warhammer series. As far as I know the games all use the same basic engine.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Honestly, these people are just good at lying, no matter how respected they might be in their fields. There might be a modicum of truth in there but the same Intel that pushed RPL-R to 6.2 GHz planned and worked for 3 to 5 years on an architecture that wasn't really meant for gaming benchmarks supremacy and was instead designed to be balanced across different workloads?? Benchmarks don't show that. It's doing really well in some benchmarks whereas it's near the bottom of the charts in some others. There was no planning done. They were flying blind during a lot of that "development" phase, is what the final ARL performance tells us. Can someone answer which Intel CPU in the past had this much variation in performance across a wide variety of workloads? Heck, I don't even remember Meteor Lake being this ugly in varied benchmark performance consistency.
 
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