Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

Eug · Nov 10, 2020

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:

M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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mikegg · 2024-10-30T00:55:40-0400

I'm not a desktop user at all, but if I can buy a $500 Mini (when on sale or EDU) that has a full M4, 16GB RAM, and many ports, I just might for fun.

That's a really freaking good deal.

DrMrLordX · 2024-10-30T01:38:04-0400

mikegg said:
I'm not a desktop user at all, but if I can buy a $500 Mini (when on sale or EDU) that has a full M4, 16GB RAM, and many ports, I just might for fun.

That's a really freaking good deal.

I was gonna ask about running Asahi on such a machine, but it looks like it doesn't even support M3 yet so

bleh

FlameTail · 2024-10-30T02:03:16-0400

With regard to the M4 Pro supporting upto 64 GB RAM in the Mac Mini...

It seems Apple isn't using the densest LPDDR5X memory on the market. If they did, they could support upto 128 GB of RAM with the 256 bit bus of M4 Pro.

Doug S · 2024-10-30T02:53:51-0400

johnsonwax said:
It seems quite obvious that ethernets days are numbered in the consumer space.

And there is always resistance to change that removes something people have assumed is "always" included. They've complained about Apple removing the floppy drive from the Mac or the headphone jack from the iPhone, but a few years later both were gone from most PCs/phones. Now it looks like Apple is canning USB-A, and perhaps taking the next step to getting rid of ethernet (first the laptops, then the iMac, we'll see if the M5 Mini still has it...) and people will whine about "dongles", but in a few years I'll bet USB-A is absent on more and more PCs, and you'll see keyboards/mice/USB sticks with a USB-C interface. I mean, what's the point of the EU forcing standardization on USB-C if we're going to cling to USB-A with our cold dead hands forever?

I'm partial to ethernet, I believe a wired connection is always superior to wireless. But wireless is convenient. I could have run wire to where my Apple TV is but it works just fine wirelessly since the router is about 20 feet away so what's the point? But I can understand getting rid of it as a standard option when fewer and fewer people are going to use it. Heck, check out new houses being built today - it is becoming more and more common to not run ANY low voltage wire - no coax and no cat5. It is an upcharge if you want that in a house you're having built now, because they don't want to add onto the price for something few people are about anymore. Instead they'll run 6/4 wire from the panel to a blank in the garage and advertise it as "EV level 2 charger ready" because that's something that helps sell the house - even if buyers don't have an EV today they imagine they'll may have one eventually.

Doug S · 2024-10-30T02:55:25-0400

FlameTail said:
With regard to the M4 Pro supporting upto 64 GB RAM in the Mac Mini...

It seems Apple isn't using the densest LPDDR5X memory on the market. If they did, they could support upto 128 GB of RAM with the 256 bit bus of M4 Pro.

They could manage far more than that, using bigger stacks. But they are going for the mass market for that price point, not hitting the niches where a handful of customers might want e.g. a 512 GB M4P Mini.

Eug · 2024-10-30T10:35:18-0400

FlameTail said:
With regard to the M4 Pro supporting upto 64 GB RAM in the Mac Mini...

It seems Apple isn't using the densest LPDDR5X memory on the market. If they did, they could support upto 128 GB of RAM with the 256 bit bus of M4 Pro.

Doug S said:
They could manage far more than that, using bigger stacks. But they are going for the mass market for that price point, not hitting the niches where a handful of customers might want e.g. a 512 GB M4P Mini.

Yeah, who the hell would buy a 256 GB or 512 GB Mac mini? That would be like 0.0001% of Mac mini customers. Even 128 GB seems like overkill for this class of machine in 2024.

I agree the previous 32 GB limitation previously was too little though. 64 GB seems reasonable for now, with 128 GB to come in a few years.

mvprod123 · 2024-10-30T11:01:40-0400

New MacBook Pro features M4 family of chips and Apple Intelligence

Apple today unveiled the new MacBook Pro, powered by the M4 family of chips: M4, M4 Pro, and M4 Max.

www.apple.com

MacBook Pro with M4 Max: The Ultimate in Pro Performance

Designed for pros like data scientists, 3D artists, and composers who constantly push workflows to the limit, MacBook Pro with M4 Max empowers users to work on projects that were previously only imaginable on a desktop. M4 Max brings up to a 16-core CPU, up to a 40-core GPU, over half a terabyte per second of unified memory bandwidth, and a Neural Engine that is over 3x faster than M1 Max, allowing on-device AI models to run faster than ever. With M4 Max, MacBook Pro delivers up to 3.5x the performance of M1 Max, ripping through heavy creative workloads like visual effects, 3D animation, and film scoring.1 It also supports up to 128GB of unified memory, so developers can easily interact with LLMs that have nearly 200 billion parameters. And with the powerful Media Engine in M4 Max, which features two ProRes accelerators, MacBook Pro performance is amazing even when taking 4K120 fps ProRes video captured with the new iPhone 16 Pro and editing it in Final Cut Pro.

mvprod123 · 2024-10-30T11:07:54-0400

M4 Max:
CPU: 12P + 4E
40 GPU cores
546 GB/s memory bandwidth

Eug · 2024-10-30T11:13:49-0400

mvprod123 said:
New MacBook Pro features M4 family of chips and Apple Intelligence

Apple today unveiled the new MacBook Pro, powered by the M4 family of chips: M4, M4 Pro, and M4 Max.

www.apple.com

MacBook Pro with M4 Max: The Ultimate in Pro Performance
Designed for pros like data scientists, 3D artists, and composers who constantly push workflows to the limit, MacBook Pro with M4 Max empowers users to work on projects that were previously only imaginable on a desktop. M4 Max brings up to a 16-core CPU, up to a 40-core GPU, over half a terabyte per second of unified memory bandwidth, and a Neural Engine that is over 3x faster than M1 Max, allowing on-device AI models to run faster than ever. With M4 Max, MacBook Pro delivers up to 3.5x the performance of M1 Max, ripping through heavy creative workloads like visual effects, 3D animation, and film scoring.1 It also supports up to 128GB of unified memory, so developers can easily interact with LLMs that have nearly 200 billion parameters. And with the powerful Media Engine in M4 Max, which features two ProRes accelerators, MacBook Pro performance is amazing even when taking 4K120 fps ProRes video captured with the new iPhone 16 Pro and editing it in Final Cut Pro.

MacBook Pro with M4 delivers:

Up to 7x faster image processing in Affinity Photo when compared to the 13‑inch MacBook Pro with Core i7, and up to 1.8x faster when compared to the 13-inch MacBook Pro with M1.

Up to 10.9x faster 3D rendering in Blender when compared to the 13‑inch MacBook Pro with Core i7, and up to 3.4x faster when compared to the 13‑inch MacBook Pro with M1.

Up to 9.8x faster scene edit detection in Adobe Premiere Pro when compared to the 13‑inch MacBook Pro with Core i7, and up to 1.7x faster when compared to the 13‑inch MacBook Pro with M1.

MacBook Pro with M4 Pro offers:

Up to 4x faster scene rendering performance with Maxon Redshift when compared to the 16-inch MacBook Pro with Core i9, and up to 3x faster when compared to the 16-inch MacBook Pro with M1 Pro.

Up to 5x faster simulation of dynamical systems in MathWorks MATLAB when compared to the 16-inch MacBook Pro with Core i9, and up to 2.2x faster when compared to the 16-inch MacBook Pro with M1 Pro.

Up to 23.8x faster basecalling for DNA sequencing in Oxford Nanopore MinKNOW when compared to the 16-inch MacBook Pro with Core i9, and up to 1.8x faster when compared to the 16-inch MacBook Pro with M1 Pro.

MacBook Pro with M4 Max enables:

Up to 7.8x faster scene rendering performance with Maxon Redshift when compared to the 16-inch MacBook Pro with Intel Core i9, and up to 3.5x faster when compared to the 16-inch MacBook Pro with M1 Max.

Up to 4.6x faster build performance when compiling code in Xcode when compared to the 16‑inch MacBook Pro with Intel Core i9, and up to 2.2x faster when compared to the 16‑inch MacBook Pro with M1 Max.

Up to 30.8x faster video processing performance in Topaz Video AI when compared to the 16‑inch MacBook Pro with Intel Core i9, and up to 1.6x faster when compared to the 16-inch MacBook Pro with M1 Max.

---

BTW, it's interesting they are using Affinity Photo for the M4 benchmark, and not Photoshop. Earlier this year Adobe made a very bad faux pas with regards to their terms and conditions, specifying that they required access to all user assets for AI analysis. Given that everyone hated Adobe's subscription model already, all of a sudden a whole bunch of people decided to switch to Affinity Photo. To take advantage of this sentiment, Affinity Photo cut their prices greatly, and also offered a 6-month (!) free trial. I ended up buying their entire creative suite even though I only wanted Affinity Photo and would only occasionally use it.

The Hardcard · 2024-10-30T11:14:09-0400

Well, it seems like that has to be a separate die. Hopefully, they’ll put up family die shots. Key upgrade for me is the bandwidth. Got to fight ti gather the cash.

poke01 · 2024-10-30T11:25:06-0400

Comes to Mac early next year. Can’t wait to try this on my Mac mini for science

mvprod123 · 2024-10-30T11:29:43-0400

Apple introduces M4 Pro and M4 Max

Apple announces M4 Pro and M4 Max, two new chips that — along with M4 — bring more power-efficient performance and advanced capabilities to the Mac.

www.apple.com

It's very strange that Apple didn't show pictures of the M4 chip dies this time. Is Apple hiding something and doesn't want us to see something new that hints at Ultra/Extreme chips?

Eug · 2024-10-30T11:35:36-0400

Two things:

1. Holy crap! Apple has silently bumped the M2 and M3 MacBook Airs to 16 GB base. The 8 GB SKU has been discontinued apparently.

2. I believe the M4 MacBook Pro (along with the Mac mini) have standard retail 24 GB SKUs now. If accurate, this means that you may be able to buy 24 GB off the shelf now at third party stores.

mvprod123 · 2024-10-30T11:35:40-0400

Binned M4 Max:

FlameTail · 2024-10-30T11:45:33-0400

mvprod123 said:
M3 Max:
CPU: 12P + 4E
40 GPU cores
546 GB/s memory bandwidth
View attachment 110581

Same core configuration as M3 Max?
Guess we should've seen this coming. M3 Max already brought a substantial core count upgrade, so expecting a similar upgrade again with M4 Max was certainly ludicrous.

Yeah, I was dead wrong about M4 Max beating 9950X/285K. 12P+4E configuration isn't strong enough to exceed 2500 points in CB2024 MT.

Eug said:
Two things:

1. Holy crap! Apple has silently bumped the M2 and M3 MacBook Airs to 16 GB base. The 8 GB SKU has been discontinued apparently.

Good. Much needed. Apple is feeling the pressure from Microsoft's minimum 16 GB RAM requirement for all Copilot+ laptops.

The storage is still 256 GB, isn't it?

mvprod123 said:
View attachment 110582

Same GPU core count as M3 Max.

So other than Ray tracing scenarios, this means the GPU is only 10% faster in general performance, by virtue of the 10% clock speed bump.

mvprod123 said:
View attachment 110583

Interesting. How do Apple's media engines work? One video stream per engine?

mvprod123 · 2024-10-30T11:58:28-0400

FlameTail said:
So other than Ray tracing scenarios, this means the GPU is only 10% faster in general performance, by virtue of the 10% clock speed bump.

20%

okoroezenwa · 2024-10-30T12:11:01-0400

Eug said:
Holy crap! Apple has silently bumped the M2 and M3 MacBook Airs to 16 GB base. The 8 GB SKU has been discontinued apparently

M4 iPad Pro looking extremely stupid right now with its 8/16 RAM breakdown lol

jdubs03 · 2024-10-30T12:26:20-0400

FlameTail said:
Same core configuration as M3 Max?
Guess we should've seen this coming. M3 Max already brought a substantial core count upgrade, so expecting a similar upgrade again with M4 Max was certainly ludicrous.

Yeah, I was dead wrong about M4 Max beating 9950X/285K. 12P+4E configuration isn't strong enough to exceed 2500 points in CB2024 MT.

Good. Much needed. Apple is feeling the pressure from Microsoft's minimum 16 GB RAM requirement for all Copilot+ laptops.

The storage is still 256 GB, isn't it?

Same GPU core count as M3 Max.

So other than Ray tracing scenarios, this means the GPU is only 10% faster in general performance, by virtue of the 10% clock speed bump.

Interesting. How do Apple's media engines work? One video stream per engine?

Still should get over 1800 in CB24 MT. And not need even 60W to get there.

Eug · 2024-10-30T12:29:29-0400

okoroezenwa said:
M4 iPad Pro looking extremely stupid right now with its 8/16 RAM breakdown lol

My 8 GB iPad Pro M4 is sad. 😔 They should have just made it 12 GB since there is 12 GB in it anyway (with 4 GB deactivated).

Anyhow my friend was saying he recently convinced a bunch of people to get the MBA during the Back-To-School sale for the gift card and edu discount, but with 16 GB RAM. However, the pricing just a month or two later for 16 GB RAM is cheaper without having to deal with the hassle of getting the gift card. Doh!

I think I will wait for M4 though, for the wife. I hope it comes in time for the Back-To-School sale. I don’t know if I’ll get the M3 (if it still exists) or the M4 but I don’t want to get the M2 because it does not have hardware AV1 decode.

pj- · 2024-10-30T12:52:15-0400

okoroezenwa said:
M4 iPad Pro looking extremely stupid right now with its 8/16 RAM breakdown lol

i think the ipad pro is far more limited by the OS's design decisions than by the amount of memory

okoroezenwa · 2024-10-30T13:12:27-0400

pj- said:
i think the ipad pro is far more limited by the OS's design decisions than by the amount of memory

Sure, but that still doesn't change that it's less future-proof than the Macs of the same generation, which sucks. iPads being able to hold more in memory, whether the software is as advanced as it should be or not, would have been good.

Eug · 2024-10-30T13:20:28-0400

okoroezenwa said:
Sure, but that still doesn't change that it's less future-proof than the Macs of the same generation, which sucks. iPads being able to hold more in memory, whether the software is as advanced as it should be or not, would have been good.

True but I suspect Apple factored that in to a certain extent. Often times those who actually use their iPads for heavy duty content creation also want more storage, and those models actually do have 16 GB.

Doug S · 2024-10-30T14:28:07-0400

The Hardcard said:
Well, it seems like that has to be a separate die. Hopefully, they’ll put up family die shots. Key upgrade for me is the bandwidth. Got to fight ti gather the cash.

I don't think we can assume that. The M4P / M4M cut line could include the extra 20 GPU cores, whatever additional SLC there may be, the additional memory controllers, and the additional encoder/display support. The extra 2 P cores the Max has? Well, about that...

There is something interesting going on with the M4 family P core cluster sizing. M4 has 4 P cores so obviously a cluster size of 4. M4M has 12 P cores, so could be three clusters of 4 or two clusters of 6. M4P has 10 P cores, is that a cluster of 4 and a cluster of 6? Two clusters of 5? Or is it three clusters of 4, and either two are binned on every M4P die or two fall on the chop line and are disabled, i.e. non functional because of part of them is missing?

name99 · 2024-10-30T15:26:52-0400

Eug said:
One problem with the Ethernet-on-the-AC-adapter approach for the iMac is that this unit is quite difficult to get after the fact. It's not sold at the Apple Store, and even if you can find it on the used market, it's very expensive.

So in the, very unlikely, situation that it fails you go to AMZ and search for "ethernet USB-C adapter"?
And are back to where you would be without the power-brick scheme?

Some people just INSIST on finding flaws in a new way of doing things - we MUST maintain the ways of the ancestors no matter what...

name99 · 2024-10-30T15:35:52-0400

Two days left.
Do we believe Gurman?
Or do we hope for the obvious way to structure and climax the whole event:

Tomorrow:
Studios with M4 Ultra announced.
Friday:
New Mac Pro with M4 Extreme announced, along with all the die shots.

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