Closet electrical work path of least resistance

pete6032 · Oct 28, 2024

I have a 4' x 6' closet in my house that hasn't been updated since the 1950s. It has a single ceiling mount pull chain light in the middle of the closet. I want to make some upgrades and want advice on these two paths forward.

Scope of work is this:

I would like to install a wired light switch in the wall along with an electric outlet so I can store various cordless cleaning devices in the closet. If I do this I will need to tap power from the ceiling junction box and then run it down the wall.
I will replace the overhead light with something better. The closet really needs two light sources due to its long and narrow shape. I haven't determined what type of light I will use yet.
The ceiling is the ugliest shade of beige you will ever see. I will be painting the whole closet as part of this project.

I don't have easy access to the attic above so I cannot go up there and run wires around. The attic also has a ton of sawdust-like insulation in it that gets everywhere when opening holes in the ceiling.

I see two options. Option 1 is probably easiest, while option 2 I don't know how difficult it would be.

Option 1: Buy a ceiling junction box extender and then run a wire raceway from the extension box across the ceiling and down the wall to a switch and outlet (see image below). Cover the wire with raceway. Replace the existing light with an inexpensive track light system so I have two light sources for more even illumination. Paint the ceiling and raceway and call it a day.

Option 2: Install a new ceiling over the existing ceiling. Basically, get a 4x6 piece of drywall and hang it a few inches underneath the old ceiling. Mount the new ceiling on joists and install crown molding around the edges to cover up the transition areas. Drill a couple of 4-in holes in the new drywall and install low profile LED can lights. Because the ceiling is lower I could run romex wire directly into the wall and down the wall to a light switch and outlet, eliminating the need for any kind of raceway system.

How much more work is option 2 really? Option 2 I don't have to mess with the raceway. I would have to buy some trim and a piece of drywall and some 2x4s to hang the new ceiling from. Any thoughts?

Greenman · Oct 28, 2024

Option one will be a less time consuming project, and you don't give up any headroom.

Paperdoc · Oct 28, 2024

Option 3 (looks a bit different from #2, but may be easier). Install a common Suspended Ceiling system. It consists of T-bar rails hung from the old ceiling by wires you adjust to make it level at the height you need close to old ceiling.Typically 2' x 4' tile sheets. Such sheets can be cut to fit the exact space between rails. Use edge mouldings instead of T-bars around the edges. T-bar ends sit on edge mouldings. Can use a translucent 2' x 4" plastic panel in place of a tile and mount a light fixture above that, fastening the fixture to the old ceiling. Run all your wiring below the old ceiling (attached to that) and above the suspended ceiling. The wiring IS still accessible for inspection and maintenance as required by code, but hidden from view.

For your wall switch etc. you MIGHT want two boxes - one for switch, one for receptacles. I'm thinking how many things (and what sizes) you need to plug in for charging tools, and whether those would fit immediately adjacent to a switch on one box. Either way, you run a length of 14/3 cable from the old light fixture hole to the switch box. The Black (Hot) line is power to your switch, the Red is return power from switch back to light fixture(s), and White is Neutral. Whether the receptacles are in that same box or another, connect a length of 14/2 cable from the Black and White in the switch box to the receptacles. Bare bonding (Ground) wires connected all through, of course.

jmagg · Oct 28, 2024

I didn't know you could feed an outlet with 14/2.

Greenman · Oct 28, 2024

jmagg said:
I didn't know you could feed an outlet with 14/2.

Done it for the last 45 years.

herm0016 · Oct 28, 2024

closets have specific requirements for light fixtures. you can not install a track light. It must be fully enclosed. Is there an attic above? It would be pretty easy to fish down to a new cut in box through the wall and into the attic space above and keep the wire in the walls where it should be. NEC 410.16 is the code reference. I am a currently licensed electrician if you have any specific questions.

pete6032 · Oct 28, 2024

herm0016 said:
closets have specific requirements for light fixtures. you can not install a track light. It must be fully enclosed. Is there an attic above? It would be pretty easy to fish down to a new cut in box through the wall and into the attic space above and keep the wire in the walls where it should be. NEC 410.16 is the code reference. I am a currently licensed electrician if you have any specific questions.

There is an unfinished attic full of insulation above, but the attic itself is not easily accessible, and the closet is far away from the attic entrance. I'm also not sure how I could drill through the wall cap into the attic without having to create a big hole in the wall to position the drill properly to drill through the cap?

herm0016 · Oct 28, 2024

pete6032 said:
There is an unfinished attic full of insulation above, but the attic itself is not easily accessible, and the closet is far away from the attic entrance. I'm also not sure how I could drill through the wall cap into the attic without having to create a big hole in the wall to position the drill properly to drill through the cap?

drill the top plate from above. have the hole precut for the cut in box and fish the wire down with fiberglass fish sticks ( harbor freight for about 8 bucks for a set) or you can get a 3/4 flex bit and stick it up in the cut in box hole to drill the top plate.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-3-Piece-Flexible-Drill-Bit-Tool-Set-53721/203913339?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&utm_source=google&utm_medium=vantage&utm_campaign=23983&utm_content=25633&mtc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-NA-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862619001-23983-NBR-1927-NA-VNT-FY24Q1_Q4_KleinTools_D27_RM__AON&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-NA-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862619001-23983-NBR-1927-NA-VNT-FY24Q1_Q4_KleinTools_D27_RM__AON-71700000117513274--&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw7Py4BhCbARIsAMMx-_IDImc9sCK4itrDFt2x5EUN4vZ9z_13CBe4KpXKU0aqLdMSzkCm90UaAkOfEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

BoomerD · Oct 28, 2024

If you know exactly where you want the fixture, drill a small hole, stick one of these up from the inside:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Orbit-15-in-Irrigation-Flags-10-Pack-53314/100113095

That way you can find the hole from the attic space, move the blown-in insulation so you can cut the necessary hole for mounting the fixture.

pete6032 · Oct 29, 2024

BoomerD said:
If you know exactly where you want the fixture, drill a small hole, stick one of these up from the inside:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Orbit-15-in-Irrigation-Flags-10-Pack-53314/100113095
That way you can find the hole from the attic space, move the blown-in insulation so you can cut the necessary hole for mounting the fixture.

Yep that's what I did last year when I installed 15 of them in my main room. I should have bit the bullet and done it in the closet too, but it was such a monumental task that I finished and told myself I would never go in the attic again because it was so difficult to maneuver up there with all the insulation.

Ken g6 · Oct 29, 2024

There are various kinds of motion-activated low-voltage LED lighting you could consider. Some are powered by rechargeable batteries; some not. A random example:

https://www.amazon.com/Litever-Activated-Linkable-Extendable-Showcase/dp/B0B587KH8V

The point is they're easy to install and don't require an electrical inspection.

Paperdoc · Oct 30, 2024

Greenman, you said, "I didn't know you could feed an outlet with 14/2." That is the normal cable for a 15 A 120 VAC circuit. The "14" is gauge of the wires all the same), and that size is correct if COPPER wire for 15 A.The "2" is two current-carrying wires, Black (Hot) and White (Neutral). The count does not include the bare Bonding wire (Ground). The "14/3" cable I referenced also contains a third (Red) current-carrying wire.

BoomerD · Oct 30, 2024

Paperdoc said:
Greenman, you said, "I didn't know you could feed an outlet with 14/2." That is the normal cable for a 15 A 120 VAC circuit. The "14" is gauge of the wires all the same), and that size is correct if COPPER wire for 15 A.The "2" is two current-carrying wires, Black (Hot) and White (Neutral). The count does not include the bare Bonding wire (Ground). The "14/3" cable I referenced also contains a third (Red) current-carrying wire.

Greenman was a building contractor (but not a licensed electrician) for many years...I'm sure he knows what 14/2 is...FWIW, Greenman didn't say that...he replied to Jmagg who said it.

pete6032 · Oct 30, 2024

BoomerD said:
Greenman was a building contractor (but not a licensed electrician) for many years...I'm sure he knows what 14/2 is...

The weird comment in this thread is the "I didn't know you could use 14/2 on an outlet" comment. Perhaps that poster is not from the U.S. I guess.

jmagg · Oct 30, 2024

I'm from the US, just thought all residential
outlet circuits needed 12ga 20A.

Greenman · Oct 30, 2024

Paperdoc said:
Greenman, you said, "I didn't know you could feed an outlet with 14/2." That is the normal cable for a 15 A 120 VAC circuit. The "14" is gauge of the wires all the same), and that size is correct if COPPER wire for 15 A.The "2" is two current-carrying wires, Black (Hot) and White (Neutral). The count does not include the bare Bonding wire (Ground). The "14/3" cable I referenced also contains a third (Red) current-carrying wire.

I meant to say "Couldn't", just a typo. I've been a residential electrician for years.

Red Squirrel · Oct 30, 2024

I'd surface mount a 4' T8 fixture, or even 2 if it's that long of a closet, then run with EMT conduit or armoured cable. Since it's just a closet anyway having exposed conduit is less of a big deal. But yeah the light fixture needs to be enclosed, the idea is that any light bulbs and such that stick out could be a potential fire hazard. Less of an issue now with LED bulbs though.

Since you're painting anyway, it does give you options to put holes in walls to run wire as you can patch before you paint, at least for the wall part. Don't really want to be poking holes in the ceiling and potentially puncturing the vapour barrier. I try to avoid that as much as I can as it just acts as an extra place for an air leak. What you could do if you don't want any exposed conduit at all is to build a bit of a bulk head to run the wires and install the fixtures on there. If you go that route another option is to use LED pot lights as well.

jmagg said:
I'm from the US, just thought all residential
outlet circuits needed 12ga 20A.

You need 12awg for a 20A outlet, but regular household outlets are typically 15 amps so 14awg is fine. 20 amp outlets tend to have a T slot for the neutral, they look a bit different. The only time I run a 20 amp outlet is if it's a dedicated outlet. You don't have to do that, but I just like to do it that way. Any 20 amp outlet I have in my house I know is not feeding anything else.

jmagg · Oct 30, 2024

Red Squirrel said:
I'd surface mount a 4' T8 fixture, or even 2 if it's that long of a closet, then run with EMT conduit or armoured cable. Since it's just a closet anyway having exposed conduit is less of a big deal. But yeah the light fixture needs to be enclosed, the idea is that any light bulbs and such that stick out could be a potential fire hazard. Less of an issue now with LED bulbs though.

Since you're painting anyway, it does give you options to put holes in walls to run wire as you can patch before you paint, at least for the wall part. Don't really want to be poking holes in the ceiling and potentially puncturing the vapour barrier. I try to avoid that as much as I can as it just acts as an extra place for an air leak. What you could do if you don't want any exposed conduit at all is to build a bit of a bulk head to run the wires and install the fixtures on there. If you go that route another option is to use LED pot lights as well.

You need 12awg for a 20A outlet, but regular household outlets are typically 15 amps so 14awg is fine. 20 amp outlets tend to have a T slot for the neutral, they look a bit different. The only time I run a 20 amp outlet is if it's a dedicated outlet. You don't have to do that, but I just like to do it that way. Any 20 amp outlet I have in my house I know is not feeding anything else.

The first wiring job I did (for myself), was pulling wire with a licensed electrician for my own new build. He did 12/2 20A for all outlets, and 14 wire for lighting. We also separated outlet and lighting circuits completely. I rewired my next new/old renovation in the same way. I overbuild most things anyway, but now I know.

Greenman · Oct 30, 2024

jmagg said:
The first wiring job I did (for myself), was pulling wire with a licensed electrician for my own new build. He did 12/2 20A for all outlets, and 14 wire for lighting. We also separated outlet and lighting circuits completely. I rewired my next new/old renovation in the same way. I overbuild most things anyway, but now I know.

I recall reading about one state that required #12 for everything. I don't recall which state it was, but an electrician was squawking about having to run 12/3 for smoke detectors.

herm0016 · Oct 30, 2024

in a new build i would run all 12 awg for outlets and 14 for lighting also.

Greenman · Oct 31, 2024

herm0016 said:
in a new build i would run all 12 awg for outlets and 14 for lighting also.

It makes sense for kitchen, bath, and garage, for all other household outlets it's just added cost without benefit. In 30 years in my last house we never once tripped a living area breaker because of overload.

Micrornd · Oct 31, 2024

Greenman said:
It makes sense for kitchen, bath, and garage, for all other household outlets it's just added cost without benefit. In 30 years in my last house we never once tripped a living area breaker because of overload.

Inspectors here insist on 12/2 w/grnd for receptacles because NEC Table 210.24 allows a 15 amp receptacles to be installed on a 20 amp circuits and they don't trust folks not to up the breaker size from 15 to 20.

Greenman · Oct 31, 2024

Micrornd said:
Inspectors here insist on 12/2 w/grnd for receptacles because NEC Table 210.24 allows a 15 amp receptacles to be installed on a 20 amp circuits and they don't trust folks not to up the breaker size from 15 to 20.

I've been a GC doing residential since 86 and I've never once seen a homeowner increase breaker amperage. I'm sure it's happened, but not often.

jmagg · Oct 31, 2024

Space heaters may be more of a concern up north.

Paperdoc · Oct 31, 2024

This is NOT part of OP's issue, but the discussion has hit on a pet peeve of mine. I do not like fitting a 20 A breaker, cable and receptacle system that allows and expects to see 15 A devices plugged in. I do not know how this developed. Perhaps it is based on the "rule" that a circuit should not be used continuously over 80% of its rating (80% of 20 is 16). I suspect it came out of the introduction of GFCI's. Say, What?

Some time ago codes required that a KITCHEN should have a certain number of SPLIT Duplex receptacles to handle the high number of heavy-amperage appliances common in the kitchen and dining room. In this version the receptacle fixture has a link broken of so that the two sockets are fed SEPARATELY from TWO breakers (actually, one duplex breaker) from the two Hot lines of the supply busses via a 14/3 cable. Thus every split duplex receptacle device provides TWO independent 15 A circuits in one mounting box. Later came the need for GFCI devices to protect against accidental current leakage caused by water, and these are required near sinks etc. Apparently it is difficult and costly to make a GFCI device that can handle TWO power inputs, so almost all such devices mounted in wall boxes have two sockets connected to ONE 15 A supply and breaker. This cuts in half the number of high-amperage sockets available in a the kitchen unless you install twice as many wall boxes. As a compromise, I believe, the decision was made to change that to 20 A GFCI, breaker and cable equipment so that a user normally could plug into its two sockets two common appliances. Many combinations exist that would not exceed 20 A, although the occasional attempt to use a Toaster Oven and a large water kettle on one GFCI might trip it. That way we get GFCI-type protection plus lots of useful sockets.

So what is wrong in my opinion? Well, that does not take into account the last item in the circuit - the device (toaster, kettle, radio, frying pan, etc.) and its internal components. In the design of such items I presume that the current-carrying components need to be able to handle up to 15 A, because that is the limit of the power supplied from the wall. That is, unless the device has its own limiting fuse or breaker. I have seen some devices that do not appear to be made that well, presumably because somebody saved costs and argued that the device cannot possibly draw such a heavy current. BUT now this device is connected to a supply that WILL allow a current over 15 A, up to 20 A, on a continuous basis. To my mind that user device is NOT protected by such a circuit even though the breaker (and maybe GFCI) is the ONLY protection device.

Personally, I would prefer to use the strategy of many more wall boxes with 15 A GFCI's to provide both GFCI protection and loads of sockets for users' 15 A appliances and devices. But I realize that SOME jurisdictions' codes may require 20 A circuits in these locations even though I disagree.

Closet electrical work path of least resistance

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