Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Hitman928 · Nov 6, 2024

511 said:
Server the home published SpecInt Performance for SRF/GNR

Ampere AmpereOne A192-32X Review A 192 Arm Core Server CPU

We dive into the Ampere AmpereOne A192-32X and discuss what this Arm-based CPU offers, how it performs, and what it means for competition

www.servethehome.com

View attachment 111089

The difference between the 9965 (Zen5c, 3.7 GHz boost) and the 9755 (Zen5, 4.1 GHz boost) doesn't make any sense to me. This would put GNR roughly even with Zen 5 in "IPC" but both are significantly behind Zen 5c.

Edit: Ahh, I see. STH didn't test it, these are top OEM submitted scores. In other words, not very useful. Also, not 1T results like I thought it was in my head.

511 · Nov 6, 2024

Hitman928 said:
The difference between the 9965 (Zen5c, 3.7 GHz boost) and the 9755 (Zen5, 4.1 GHz boost) doesn't make any sense to me. This would put GNR roughly even with Zen 5 in "IPC" but both are significantly behind Zen 5c.

Edit: Ahh, I see. STH didn't test it, these are top OEM submitted scores. In other words, not very useful.

Sadly yes but it is showing both in their best light considering OEMs would have used their best to optimize for the platform also does AMD rates TDP at all core boost or it guarantees only base clock at TDP just like Intel does cause in actual workload clocks maybe been different than official figures under all core workload

GTracing · Nov 6, 2024

moinmoin said:
If that's the case we would need other explanations for why performance in games is low and random.

It's memory and cache latency. A few outlets have tested overclocking the ring bus and tile interconnect and got huge gains.

One example: JayzTwoCents got an 11% increase in Cyberpunk 2077

Hitman928 · Nov 6, 2024

511 said:
Sadly yes but it is showing both in their best light considering OEMs would have used their best to optimize for the platform also does AMD rates TDP at all core boost or it guarantees only base clock at TDP just like Intel does cause in actual workload clocks maybe been different than official figures under all core workload

I was just reading the CNC article on the 9800x3d so in my head the STH results were 1t, but they're not, so my IPC comment with the boost clocks can be dismissed entirely. The problem with using the top OEM results is that they will be using the vendor's compilers (ICX for Intel and AOCC or AMD). These are not used much in the real world (especially AOCC) and even worse, can have specific SPEC cheats built in (Intel just got caught for this by SPEC recently and had a bunch of results invalidated). So, using the top scores isn't very interesting.

For AMD and TDP, the base clock is guaranteed at the rated TDP, though in almost all cases, the actual clock speed will be higher than the base clock, even when all cores are fully engaged.

511 · Nov 6, 2024

Hitman928 said:
I was just reading the CNC article on the 9800x3d so in my head the STH results were 1t, but they're not, so my IPC comment with the boost clocks can be dismissed entirely. The problem with using the top OEM results is that they will be using the vendor's compilers (ICX for Intel and AOCC or AMD). These are not used much in the real world (especially AOCC) and even worse, can have specific SPEC cheats built in (Intel just got caught for this by SPEC recently and had a bunch of results invalidated). So, using the top scores isn't very interesting.

Yes i know about that SPEC Dismissed many of their results for SPR but that is the best thing we will ever get unless Wendell or STH does a SpecInt benchmark

DavidC1 · Nov 6, 2024

511 said:
Server the home published SpecInt Performance for SRF/GNR

Ampere AmpereOne A192-32X Review A 192 Arm Core Server CPU

We dive into the Ampere AmpereOne A192-32X and discuss what this Arm-based CPU offers, how it performs, and what it means for competition

www.servethehome.com

View attachment 111089

If 288 core Sierra Forest doesn't degrade in clocks, then we can expect 1300 points.

Markfw · Nov 6, 2024

DavidC1 said:
If 288 core Sierra Forest doesn't degrade in clocks, then we can expect 1300 points.

Last generations 96 core blows it away ?? That would say its no good.

DavidC1 · Nov 6, 2024

Markfw said:
Last generations 96 core blows it away ?? That would say its no good.

That's above Turin 9755. You are quite single minded aren't you?

Hulk · Nov 6, 2024

Well I'll be getting a warranty replacement on my 3rd Raptor CPU shortly. Running on auto "Intel safe" BIOS options with updated Intel microcode BIOS and max clock capped at 5.5GHz. Getting lock ups in Topaz Photo AI. Contacted them and they said check CPU stability Photo AI hits the CPU hard. I said, "Impossible, I'm 100% stable."

Just for kicks I backed max clock down to 4.5GHz and the issues with Photo AI are resolved.

Checked with Intel and based on S/N and batch number they said my CPU is "defective" and will send a new one.

Now the question do I use it or just bail and move to AMD? I want to bail as I'm tired of this. I just hate starting over with Windows from the ground up. But it's gotta happen sooner or later right? I think the writing is on the wall and I have to move on from Intel.

Markfw · Nov 6, 2024

DavidC1 said:
That's above Turin 9755. You are quite single minded aren't you?

No, its directly about the ampere. The Turin ends with a 5 , the 2 at the top. Whats the single minded crap ?

Are you commenting in the 6980P ? The Turin's are above that and the 2 Genoas are below. Still not impressed.

But much better than the 2P 6252

jdubs03 · Nov 6, 2024

Hulk said:
Well I'll be getting a warranty replacement on my 3rd Raptor CPU shortly. Running on auto "Intel safe" BIOS options with updated Intel microcode BIOS and max clock capped at 5.5GHz. Getting lock ups in Topaz Photo AI. Contacted them and they said check CPU stability Photo AI hits the CPU hard. I said, "Impossible, I'm 100% stable."

Just for kicks I backed max clock down to 4.5GHz and the issues with Photo AI are resolved.

Checked with Intel and based on S/N and batch number they said my CPU is "defective" and will send a new one.

Now the question do I use it or just bail and move to AMD? I want to bail as I'm tired of this. I just hate starting over with Windows from the ground up. But it's gotta happen sooner or later right? I think the writing is on the wall and I have to move on from Intel.

Are they offering a refund? It’s a tough call imo, because a replacement, which should not be defective, can slot right in.
But, Zen 5 is obviously superior, so I can see how it’d be tempting to pocket a refund and upgrade.

511 · Nov 6, 2024

Hulk said:
Well I'll be getting a warranty replacement on my 3rd Raptor CPU shortly. Running on auto "Intel safe" BIOS options with updated Intel microcode BIOS and max clock capped at 5.5GHz. Getting lock ups in Topaz Photo AI. Contacted them and they said check CPU stability Photo AI hits the CPU hard. I said, "Impossible, I'm 100% stable."

Just for kicks I backed max clock down to 4.5GHz and the issues with Photo AI are resolved.

Checked with Intel and based on S/N and batch number they said my CPU is "defective" and will send a new one.

Now the question do I use it or just bail and move to AMD? I want to bail as I'm tired of this. I just hate starting over with Windows from the ground up. But it's gotta happen sooner or later right? I think the writing is on the wall and I have to move on from Intel.

Just move away from Intel if the issue persists

alcoholbob · Nov 6, 2024

Hulk said:
Well I'll be getting a warranty replacement on my 3rd Raptor CPU shortly. Running on auto "Intel safe" BIOS options with updated Intel microcode BIOS and max clock capped at 5.5GHz. Getting lock ups in Topaz Photo AI. Contacted them and they said check CPU stability Photo AI hits the CPU hard. I said, "Impossible, I'm 100% stable."

Just for kicks I backed max clock down to 4.5GHz and the issues with Photo AI are resolved.

Checked with Intel and based on S/N and batch number they said my CPU is "defective" and will send a new one.

Now the question do I use it or just bail and move to AMD? I want to bail as I'm tired of this. I just hate starting over with Windows from the ground up. But it's gotta happen sooner or later right? I think the writing is on the wall and I have to move on from Intel.

I can't imagine a new CPU would fix your problems as RPL CPUs are destined to degrade no matter what BIOS you use what these kind of suicide voltages. I don't think extended life is possible without heavy undervolting and lowering the AC/DC load lines because these chips come out of the factory boosting to 1.5V or higher which is insane.

If you watch buildzoid's videos you can see most of these 14900Ks can run stable at stock clocks at 1.3V max vcore, if not much lower (mine is running at 1.244V max vcore with AC/DC LL Mode 3 & -160mv offset). Intel's out-of-the-box VID tables are just total trash and are sending these chips into crazy thermal and voltage territory.

Hulk · Nov 6, 2024

jdubs03 said:
Are they offering a refund? It’s a tough call imo, because a replacement, which should not be defective, can slot right in.
But, Zen 5 is obviously superior, so I can see how it’d be tempting to pocket a refund and upgrade.

They are offering a replacement CPU. I'm jumping ship. 14900K is too hard to cool and too prone to degradation for my tastes. I could just run at 4.5GHz and call it a day... but I'm an enthusiast! I can't go out like that.

jdubs03 · Nov 6, 2024

Hulk said:
They are offering a replacement CPU. I'm jumping ship. 14900K is too hard to cool and too prone to degradation for my tastes. I could just run at 4.5GHz and call it a day... but I'm an enthusiast! I can't go out like that.

Take the replacement and sell that ish!

DrMrLordX · Nov 7, 2024

511 said:
Why the negativity for Rouge river forest it is coming Raichu and Bionic squash has confirmed it on Twitter

There are others claiming it's on the chopping block. Intel is strapped for cash. They're making decisions now (or have already made decisions) that will affect their product lineup for many years in advance, and if that means cutting corners, then there's going to be a direct competition for funding between P-core and E-core Xeons.

511 said:
and can we stop blaming everything on Gelsinger

He's the CEO, and he's making the decisions. So no, we can't. Even if he's stuck in a bad situation with cash shortages that are a very real cause for concern. What he chooses to keep and what he cuts will have a major impact on how Intel progresses in the future.

511 said:
How can you say that it is not doing well otherwise Intels DC revenue would not be 9% up they are due to SRF/GNR there is no other way for it to go up

They're in an overall growth market. Their competition is surging ahead while Intel lags badly, and their margins in the last quarter were quite bad.

cannedlake240 · Nov 7, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
There are others claiming it's on the chopping block. Intel is strapped for cash. They're making decisions now (or have already made decisions) that will affect their product lineup for many years in advance, and if that means cutting corners, then there's going to be a direct competition for funding between P-core and E-core Xeons.

He's the CEO, and he's making the decisions. So no, we can't. Even if he's stuck in a bad situation with cash shortages that are a very real cause for concern. What he chooses to keep and what he cuts will have a major impact on how Intel progresses in the future.

They're in an overall growth market. Their competition is surging ahead while Intel lags badly, and their margins in the last quarter were quite bad.

They do have a few bright points on the roadmap, the 288C CLF and Diamond Rapids should narrow the gap with AMD even further. After that it depends if they've made progress in cpu core design and AI chips. If the foundry achieves break even, that's half their problems solved in near term

DrMrLordX · Nov 7, 2024

cannedlake240 said:
They do have a few bright points on the roadmap, the 288C CLF and Diamond Rapids should narrow the gap with AMD even further.

We went over Clearwater Forest already, but hey maybe Diamond Rapids has something good to offer.

511 · Nov 7, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
There are others claiming it's on the chopping block. Intel is strapped for cash. They're making decisions now (or have already made decisions) that will affect their product lineup for many years in advance, and if that means cutting corners, then there's going to be a direct competition for funding between P-core and E-core Xeons.

Others can claim but it is the last thing that should be on chopping block, maybe they are axing lower SKUs like the 144C SRF and moving forward with a common platform with DMR.
Unless some reliable leaker gives a leak i am not holding my breath for RRF Chopping

DrMrLordX said:
He's the CEO, and he's making the decisions. So no, we can't. Even if he's stuck in a bad situation with cash shortages that are a very real cause for concern. What he chooses to keep and what he cuts will have a major impact on how Intel progresses in the future.

Even for bad decision his predecessor made for Lisa su she had her work cut out she didn't have to deal with foundry besides they are short on cash though she only had to get design together

DrMrLordX said:
They're in an overall growth market. Their competition is surging ahead while Intel lags badly, and their margins in the last quarter were quite bad.

Yes but there are improvement let's be real Xeon is their Saving Grace in AI not Gaudi and also Falcon shores will tell whether they can make a competent GPU or not

cannedlake240 · Nov 7, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
We went over Clearwater Forest already, but hey maybe Diamond Rapids has something good to offer.

Yeah unlike Granite, Diamond isn't stuck with a last gen core and process node. Apparently it has no SMT support which is a major downside. Core counts unknown

cannedlake240 · Nov 7, 2024

511 said:
Unless some reliable leaker gives a leak i am not holding my breath for RRF Chopping

Isn't that reddit user making the claim one of the more reliable and well known in the rumor mill though? Pat expressed this sentiment twice already, once saying that Forest line sales in the foreseeable future will continue to be lower than P core Xeon

DavidC1 · Nov 7, 2024

Markfw said:
No, its directly about the ampere. The Turin ends with a 5 , the 2 at the top. Whats the single minded crap ?

Are you commenting in the 6980P ? The Turin's are above that and the 2 Genoas are below. Still not impressed.

But much better than the 2P 6252

What the heck are you talking about?

Epyc 9755 gets slightly lower than 1300. The "previous generation 96 core" which is 9654 gets ~900.

If SRF-AP gets 1300 only 9965 will be faster in SpecInt_Rate. Biases are clouding your viewpoint.

511 · Nov 7, 2024

cannedlake240 said:
Yeah unlike Granite, Diamond isn't stuck with a last gen core and process node. Apparently it has no SMT support which is a major downside. Core counts unknown

DMR has SMT lol also considering it will be Two Tocks and 1 Tick it better be 40-50% Ipc 🤣
RWC+ -> Lion Cove -> Cougar Cove -> Panther Cove

cannedlake240 · Nov 7, 2024

511 said:
DMR has SMT lol also considering it will be Two Tocks and 1 Tick it better be 40-50% Ipc 🤣
RWC+ -> Lion Cove -> Cougar Cove -> Panther Cove

10-15% at best should be the expectation for modern architectures. Memory and cache latency on GNR isn't great in HEX mode so if they can sort that out IPC uplift will be greater than Client. If latency can't be lowered at least get the capacity up through 3d stacking...

511 · Nov 7, 2024

cannedlake240 said:
10-15% at best should be the expectation for modern architectures. Memory and cache latency on GNR isn't great in HEX mode so if they can sort that out IPC uplift will be greater than Client. If latency can't be lowered at least get the capacity up through 3d stacking...

Ehh for one architecture sure but they are Jumping two architecture and one optimization.LNC has 14% ipc over RWC and cougar is 5% more and Panther is another 10-15% it is inline with modern architecture 🙂

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