Trip to London and then Paris

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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,539
21,770
136
My personal favorite is probably the Musée Picasso in the Marais but that's probably because I always found his work interesting. I am also perfectly happy not going into any museums and just wandering the city or sitting at a cafe. Paris is a great place to just exist for a while.
Even though I go to the MoMA 1 to two times a year, the Picasso's are always always always a top highlight. I mean that guy lived up to the hype. Painting wise. There's probably many women out there who don't feel the same about him outside of painting.
 
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Dr. Detroit

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2004
8,282
742
126
We literally were done with Venice after half a day lol we were there this past April. I am more of an outdoorsy type so I prefer the mountains and hiking so all the big cities are way down on my list.

I went to Paris a few years ago, my first ever trip to Europe, for a work conference. I was not impressed. Old churches, cool. Lots of statues and art - but mostly from the 1800's which didn't impress me much. My steak drenched in herb butter & frites were great, the bread & butter was fantastic, trout was great!

But, I'd rather be in the woods seeing natural beauty and not being surrounded by a thousand tourists all with their phone out, many with absolutely horrible manners.

Next time I do Europe it will be hiking around Mont Blanc.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
31,753
9,704
136
We literally were done with Venice after half a day lol we were there this past April. I am more of an outdoorsy type so I prefer the mountains and hiking so all the big cities are way down on my list.
3 days in Verona, 3 days in Venice then head up to Bolzano for hiking in the dolomites!
 
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nOOky

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2004
3,085
2,098
136
I went to Paris a few years ago, my first ever trip to Europe, for a work conference. I was not impressed. Old churches, cool. Lots of statues and art - but mostly from the 1800's which didn't impress me much. My steak drenched in herb butter & frites were great, the bread & butter was fantastic, trout was great!

But, I'd rather be in the woods seeing natural beauty and not being surrounded by a thousand tourists all with their phone out, many with absolutely horrible manners.

Next time I do Europe it will be hiking around Mont Blanc.

Nice. I ran UTMB this year, but had to quit after 78 miles. However I have run CCC, so I have technically been on all of the trails around the mountain. I am going to try and get in next year and run all the way around Mont Blanc and finish this time. It is a great area, lots to do in Chamonix and the Aosta valley area.

We were in Croatia in April this year, also a great place to visit due to the Mediterranean climate and in early April spring was popping and it was beautiful.
 

nisryus

Senior member
Sep 11, 2007
800
165
116
Thanks giys for the suggestions.

I am a museum person, but sadly, the wife isn't. I could spent a whole day looking at arts, but she thinks its boring and waste of time.

She really wants to visit Paris. I dunno why, i hope she is not thinking of buying LV or Herme. i don't have that kind of dough ...

So anyway, currently we might skip going to Italy due to the time and distance, and stick with London, Belgium and France.. Hell, she might wants to skip Belgium too because everyone from my in-laws side been telling her you only drink beers there.....
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,297
30,322
146
Thanks giys for the suggestions.

I am a museum person, but sadly, the wife isn't. I could spent a whole day looking at arts, but she thinks its boring and waste of time.

She really wants to visit Paris. I dunno why, i hope she is not thinking of buying LV or Herme. i don't have that kind of dough ...

So anyway, currently we might skip going to Italy due to the time and distance, and stick with London, Belgium and France.. Hell, she might wants to skip Belgium too because everyone from my in-laws side been telling her you only drink beers there.....

understood, and as others have mentioned, the non-Louvre museums are more worth it, even to me who very much is an art person. I'd also like to throw in the Dali museum in Mon Martre, which is very awesome. Very small, lots of sketches and bronzes, actually. Stuff you don't normally see form Dali and easy to get through. Something to do while visiting Mon Martre, which you are going to do in Paris anyway.

Belgium: yes really. You only go there if you like beer, tbh. Otherwise, go to Holland.
 
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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
15,365
5,884
136
So after month of thinking and soul searching, the wife has calm down a little and has shelved the idea of moving to VA or back to CA.. for now.

Probably a good call. Apparently Austin builders built enough that prices have moderated. Might be slightly difficult to sell if you need every last dollar to afford something in Northern Virginia.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
31,753
9,704
136
I went hiking in the Dolomites once, cool, funky mountains.
They are totally surreal when you are near them! Definitely want to go back but the wife is never so keen about going back to the same place over and over!
The grand paradiso national park in northern Italy is also pretty amazing, not quite so jagged.
 

Chapbass

Diamond Member
May 31, 2004
3,145
93
91
When I was in Europe I went to 4 places - Barcelona, Paris, St. Sebastian, and Valencia. I was at each spot for 3 nights and we traveled by train to each spot. I think the longest train ride was maybe like 5 hours if I remember? It was cool but it was way too busy for what I like to do on vacations and way too "scheduled" for my likings.

But to be fair, my ideal vacation is always going to the Caribbean and chilling on a white sand beach with clear water and a cocktail, and get some diving and snorkeling in and do a sunset cruise.

We did Europe because my wife had been wanting to do it for a while and we stayed with her cousin in St. Sebastian. We may hit up Greece next year though for our anniversary, but will be on some of the islands versus the mainland.
If you're going to do Santorini, my wife and I stayed here for our Honeymoon and it was the most relaxing vacation I've ever had. https://www.thevasilicos.com/
 

Gizmo j

Golden Member
Nov 9, 2013
1,150
317
136
@nisryus


If you want to go to London, play Watch Dogs Legion.

If you want to go to Paris, play Assassin's Creed Unity.
 
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DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,874
2,338
126
ok it's tomorrow.

So,

as other wise men have said, the best thing you can do when you come to europe is to go slow. Think, if you go to a spa, you're already done - you are inside the spa. You just casually use the various services as they come or as they catch your fancy - because you are there to relax. Your destinations may have one or two things you really really must see, but i would suggest limiting these to one every other day at most. You need to consider that our transport is pretty much shit, because some of it has grown out of literally medieval equivalents, and our cities can be quite packed (specially the places where YOU want to go) so "uh i'll just go see THING" isn't gonna be so relaxing and/or straightforward as you imagine.

heathrow is horrible, expensive and slow to get in and out of. the "tube" (the subway) is also long and slow and smelly. As a (former) londoner, i really don't know what the hell you want to see here. Buckingham palace is going to look like shit compared to the architecture you see in Rome or Paris.
London is also wet and dirty and full of fucking people, and really not a great sightseeing experience. I mean, some of the "sights" are allright, but walking around to see the sightseeing things is fucking annoying as hell.



Oxford is quite charmin, though i have not been in 20 years, so thing may have changed quite a bit. Getting there also is not terribly easy, and i would suggest a day excursion arranged by a company - i know it sounds tacky AF but it's probably easier to let someone else do the legwork to give you a nice experience.

Venice is fantastic. It's fantastic because it's designed to look fantastic, which comes with an extra charge. Prepare to pay some pretty steep prices for everything, but, compared to say Miami Beach, it's reasonable. Also, this is one of those places where having zero plan and just going where your feet take you is by far the best idea. Try to get lost. Explore.

Forget about taking the train. There is a fantastic Eurtostar service from london Paddington into Paris, and then from Paris all the way down to Lyon, but how the fuck are you planning to pass the alps? You would instead need to go to Geneva, and from there in the tunnel, which is like 4 hours underground, out of a 16 hour journey. If you are still planning to do this i would STONGLY recommend that you pay for first class tickets, because european trains can get really, really full, and the further south you go the worse the experience.

There will be big differences in your trip depending when you are travelling. London in Dec / Jan / Feb is to be avoided at all costs. You will be soaked, your shoes will be black with city mud (that's a lovely combination of car fumes and pigeon shit we're talking about here), and people will be constantly bumping into you everywhere.
Traffic in london sucks balls.
Buses suck balls. the Tube sucks balls.

If you delay your trip to Venice until february, you could catch the Carnival. This is an absolutely epic experience that humiliates similar events like the carnival in Rio, but be warned that accommodation will triple in price and the whole fucking city is booked out months in advance.

Italy has fairly decent weather but, i still wouldn't pick the early months of the year for anything except the venice carnival.

Rome is as always a great tourist destination, maybe not as much as it may have been 20-30 years ago (same goes for Paris), but it's still ok, provided that you go march to early-july at most, or september to mid-october.

Edinburgh is lovely and VERY easy to travel. If you are looking for that old-world charm with a Bri'ish tint, then my recommendation is to go to Edinbrah. We say Hed-in-bra, we dont say eydenBURG. Even at christmas (which is fantastic in 'Ed, if a little cold) it's great to visit. The castle has daily tours, there are some fantastic high-end whisky (no "e") tasting bars, you can buy a kilt, the hotels have reasonable prices, and either Glasgow Paisley (GLA) or Edinburgh (EDI) airports have long-haul direct flights to the US.

If you feel adventurous, you can rent a car and just take a drive along the highlands. It's not risky, you don't need to know much aside from keeping your wheels on the tarmac, and it's fairly cheap for the sights. There's also day-excursions to the islands, but it's not a great activity for the winter months.
The EAST side of scotland has a much drier climate (well, so to speak) than the west.
Inverness is also another option, look at some photos online. But, i would go Edinburgh.

I would also offer an alternative to Rome, which is Palermo (direct flights from anywhere). At one point Italy did not exist as a country and there was a thing called the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies; Palermo was the capital, and as such it has incredible architecture, not quite as ancient as Rome, but really beautiful. The food is gorgeous, possibly even better than in Rome, and the weather in Sicily is extremely mild. I would rate it as a low-risk holiday, just don't be a 'tard i.e don't hang your camera around your neck, don't wear shades and a star-spangled shirt, don't flash your wad sort-of-things and you'll be fine.

See, in Europe, if you know where to look, everywhere is nice. But there's places where even if you *don't* know where to look, everywhere is nice.
There's also places where it's very nice on this side, and horrible in the other. I promise you that both Paris and Rome and also London etc have some fucking disgusting places, but so do all big cities.
Now, you could go "remote", villages in Tuscany, in León, in Burgundy, but it's not easy to plan a holiday there, and then be able to actualy DO STUFF.

I also wouldn't know Lisbon, or Porto, or maybe Madrid, but if you go to Barcelona well, it's a big city where people are busy. Better than London, but again the same kind of stuff. Think of a european tourist looking lost in Manhattan. Do you want to be that guy?



Dublin's quite nice, but the main attraction is drinking.

Amsterdam's quite nice, but the main attraction is smoking weed.

Belgium is .. exists. It is nice, but also extremely Belgian uneventful.

Geneva is lovely, and so are most cities in Germany. all the central european republics - germany, switzerland, austria are so clean, secure, well organized, that you can just show up without a plan and everything will work out well. These are places where you go to the police and they help you, instead of beating you up.
They are also not particularly .. "special". I spent a day in Frankfurth and it was all of the above, lovely, but also .. kind of bland.

Paris is beautiful, but if you travel to another french town, you may lose a bit on the beauty, but will be further away from the homeless guys in the streets and the roving bands of drunk algerinians. And really you can have your pick, Toulouse, Poitiers, Lyon, Marseille (where they do the bouillabasse), but honestly i would go to the riviera - Cannes, Nice, Monaco.

The same goes for Italy. Sure yeah Rome, Milano, but if you go to say, Verona, Torino (mostly good for shopping), Padova, Arezzo, they all have their charms, and while they might be less "prepared" to host foreigners (i.e. less people speak english) they are also far less crowded, far easier to walk around in, cheaper, and you'll probably find the food more refined.
I would strongly advise you to avoid Naples, and in general the south of italy. it's good for me, but not for you.
Sicily is another matter alltogether. Yes there is a lot of crime, but it's italians on other italians, they don't target foreigners (unless you move there, then you're fair game).
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,874
2,338
126
if i was .. well, i can't really say that because i'm from europe. So i would already know where to go, OR i would not really be interested in the whole 'monuments thing, but in broad terms my recommendations are:

Prague is magnificent. It has pretty much everything, old monuments, gorgeous architecture, nightlife, it's safe, it's dirt fucking cheap, nearly 90% of the younger population speaks english.

Edinburgh is my favourite city in the whole of the Bri'ish isles. Well, no, i'm a Glasgow boy, but for a christmas holiday i would absolutely take Edinburgh over Glasgae.

all of the alps are great, but i would prefer Geneva to Zurich, and if you go anywhere near ski season, it's gonna be quite expensive and cold.

I'd take Porto over Lisbon because the people tend to be a bit more mellow.

for all of Spain, well i have not travelled ALL of spain, but i would prefer the smaller cities like Saragoza and Bilbao to either Madrid or Barcelona. Even better if you can go to the villages up in the mountains, but then it becomes a 1-destination trip.

Budapest i have heard is also incredibly beautiful - but, i have not been personally. it tends to be less of an "international" city (i.e 45-50% of english),and between the two Prague would win every time.

I wouldn't relaly recommend anything further south than that, unless you are ready to go to Istanbul. Istanbul can get quite cold during the winter, which is weird considering the location, but it's also a city that is pretty much designed to be hot, so during those 2 months it kind of just dies down.

For Italy i would put my money on Palermo, cheaper, pretty much the same experience as Rome, just as well connected for flights.

I have only heard great praise for Berlin, but have never been myself, and also all the prasie came from people who LIVED there. So i cannot really say what the experience is like if you just visit casually.

I would avoid north germany / poland / denmark / latvia etc because the winters are fierce and you really need to be prepared for the intense cold, clothing and all.

Ofc i, having been born in Roma, Caput Mundi, consider places like Morocco to be Europe, because they belong to us, the bloody roman empire, innit? so i wouldn't rule out a visit to Marrakech or Tangier (or Chefchowen or Ceuta), but for you i'd say "be careful what you eat". I go to Agadir pretty much once a year and i love it.

Palma de Mallorca is actually quite nice when it's not fucking RAVE SEASON.

I wouldn't recommend the other spanish islands (ibiza, tenerife etc) unless you like dropping extasy.

I wouldn't recommend either Sardinia or Corsica unless you like dropping filuferru and cheese.

I would stay away from Tunis or Algiers, they are not as modern as Morocco and travel there can result in bad experiences. I would also advise you to not go to Cairo or even Alexandria, although you would be ok if you go to a resort city like Hurghada.

Malta is nice. It's .. not dangerous, they speak every language in existence, it's a little expensive but not much, but it's also not .. super in any way. It's a solid OK and that's all.

Athens is pure chaos.
Naples is pure chaos.
All of Grece is off-limits during the winter months. Also they don't speak a fucking word of english.


and now, as Bubba said in the famous Forrest Gump shrimp scene, ".. uh .. that's, that's about it."
 
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nisryus

Senior member
Sep 11, 2007
800
165
116
Wow, thanks DigDog.

Yeah we are flying to Heathrow Airport because the flights were the cheapest XD. But might change.

We could just fly to Europe first, then go back to London later. Still planning the trip since there are so many places to see.. my brain is melting...
 
Dec 10, 2005
25,514
8,932
136
Having been in London just 2 months ago, and previously ~3 years ago: the Tube is fine; trains are frequent and take you tons of places. And nowadays, you don't even need a fancy fare card - just tap in/tap out with your phone or an NFC enabled card.

Getting to/from Heathrow is also not so bad. Depending on where you're going, the Picadilly line is about a 40-60 min ride, the Elizabeth line is faster at about 30-45 min, and there is the Heathrow Express to Paddington in only 15 min (though, buy tickets in advance as much as possible for this one, otherwise it's kind of pricey).
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,874
2,338
126
Wow, thanks DigDog.

Yeah we are flying to Heathrow Airport because the flights were the cheapest XD. But might change.

We could just fly to Europe first, then go back to London later. Still planning the trip since there are so many places to see.. my brain is melting...
well, i book travel itineraries for a living,

can you tell me these things please

1. when do you want to travel; when is your travel date, how many days for, how much leeway, what departure airport. i take it you are a US citizen so you have the standard 90 days stamp-on-arrival for all the countries in the greater european area.

2. are you on a strict budget? for both flights and holiday. And how long do you have to stay here?
The time on the ground is important because if you have your 8/9hour flight from JFK or Logan BOS and maybe connecting flight there plus car ride, security, etc and then the same again backwards in a few days, and you try to pack all that plus all the activities in a week or so, you will be tired, man, the "holiday" will exhaust you. The goal of a holiday is that you come back better, not worse.

3. and this is the most difficult to answer ..
What kind of EXPERIENCE do you want and/or expect to have. Do you come to europe to feel like you've stepped into an antique world? See statues and buildings that make you feel like you live in the middle ages? Or are you just looking to have an informed viewing of arts? such as museums, and well again, statues and buildings, but more in a "technical" way that just "let the beauty sweep me off my feet".
Are you looking to stay on a chair and get cocktails handed to you? Do you want to go explore old taverns and order weird foods in a strange language? Do you want to feel the hustle&bustle of a crowded market, do you want shining hotel lobbies, do you want to buy fancy new clothes or old cloth? Ethnic or modern?

Are you looking for a life-changing experience, or for a conversation piece?


Remember that, for how modern and reasonably well organized we are in Europe, you are still travelling to a foreign country. While things will probably go smooth, they can still go wrong. A solid travel insurance policy (should be failry cheap, $100 or less, although it may be higher if you have preexiting conditions) is gonna be needed as well.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,297
30,322
146
^of the "less crowded" Italian cities that you mention @DigDog, I would say that they are all significantly more crowded than when I last visited, c. 23 years ago.

I went back to Verona, Padova etc thinking they would still be the same sleepy, lovely and beautiful relaxing towns as they were then...but I was wrong. Especially for this time of year (like 3 weeks ago). Verona was...packed. Not that I was surprised by this, but the region that I am most familiar with: Florence/Venice, are as expected--somehow unimaginably worse when it comes to crowds, 20 years later. However, Venice doesn't seem that different, and one wouldn't imagine it to be less crowded, or having changed all that much.

For me, the sign that I've noticed in the big and semi-major cities is the cruise ship model: all of the big squares in all of these cities are now packed with tables that just metastisize out into all the public spaces, so all of these cruise and bus tourists can pack into the designated spaces and sit at their tables, enjoying their shitty overpriced generic meals, run around the few blocks that they see and spend money on their nicnacs with the limited time they have to get back to their transport, and say "I visited X City!" It's literally everywhere. Perhaps what most shocked me, about 10 years ago, was seeing this happening in Riga, of all places, over the course of 8 years. It was nuts. I love that place--reminds me of a mini-Prague but with a very distinct Latvia mood, of course, but the last time I went in 2018, it had been cruise-shipped. Pretty gross.

Florence kind of shocked me--the neighborhood that I lived in is now sort of their "little Asia." There wasn't a single Asian restaurant anywhere in the city at the time, now there are several dozens. There also wasn't a single Chinese tourist that I encountered anywhere in Italy and Europe over like, 5 months, twenty years ago. Now you can't walk a block without running into a very large horde of them. There are locals now, and from what I can tell, mostly Taiwanese and Chinese. It's definitely changed things.
But other than that, as beautiful and "necessary" a place like Florence is, it is just such a different vibe than it was, concerning the crowds of course, which is led to a much more obvious "disneyfication" of the place: pay for literally everything, expect a queue for all of those things. The whole city is kinda like a disneyworld experience. I didn't appreciate this at the time, being quite young and not really living on my own, outside of home, before that time. In comparison, places like Bologna and Milano seem more like actual cities with real city things, and you can live and do all sorts of work there. Florence and Venice, eh...forget that idea tbh.

And while it's unfair to compare the cost of Italy now compared to the pre-Euro days when I was used to the wonderful and entirely useless Lire...it's definitely a shock that I expected, but didn't really appreciate it until I had to experience it. I'd traveled throughout Europe since then, a couple of times, but for some reason it was more stark in Italy this time (granted, this could be recent international inflation and price shock response, I'm not really sure), as the food costs are just astronomically higher....I've also noticed that in catering to more international tourists, portions have increased substantially at most restaurants, along with the prices, so there is much less incentive to go with a proper antipasti, primi, secondi.
 
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