Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

poke01 · Nov 15, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
Sadly you're still stuck with a board for which you won't get any refunds.

Get a 12400 used and turn it into a nas assuming you have spare parts of course

AcrosTinus · Nov 15, 2024

Hulk said:
Thank you to the person who told me to ask Intel for a refund. I did just that and they are going to refund me the purchase price of my 14900K. Looks like I'm moving to AMD.

I don't want to be an AMD hater but never forget that AMD still sucks in these departments (I have a 7950x as a server):

Worse Chipset, connected over 4xLanes
Worse storage performance compared to raptor lake
6000Mhz ram speed ceiling, infinity fabric limit
chiplets on mainstream have one GMI link, leading to lower memory bandwidth than raptor lake
Lower memory bandwidth limits the advantage of AVX512
very good gaming but only on x3D, standard parts are a regression compared to raptor lake
slow boot times, memory training
flaky usb speeds that changes with every agesa update due to mainboards integrating many more chips from other vendors compared to Intel.
Issue with 8K polling rate peripherals
very bad IGPU with bad encoder and decoder support, and very bad H.264 quality

I would wait for the 9950x3D or the fix for Arrow Lake.
Of course you could also go all out on a Threadripper 7960x on an Asus SAGE.

Hulk · Nov 15, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
I don't want to be an AMD hater but never forget that AMD still sucks in these departments (I have a 7950x as a server):

Worse Chipset, connected over 4xLanes

Worse storage performance compared to raptor lake

6000Mhz ram speed ceiling, infinity fabric limit

chiplets on mainstream have one GMI link, leading to lower memory bandwidth than raptor lake

Lower memory bandwidth limits the advantage of AVX512

very good gaming but only on x3D, standard parts are a regression compared to raptor lake

slow boot times, memory training

flaky usb speeds that changes with every agesa update due to mainboards integrating many more chips from other vendors compared to Intel.

Issue with 8K polling rate peripherals

very bad IGPU with bad encoder and decoder support, and very bad H.264 quality

I would wait for the 9950x3D or the fix for Arrow Lake.
Of course you could also go all out on a Threadripper 7960x on an Asus SAGE.

Uh oh, analysis paralysis incoming.

Thunder 57 · Nov 15, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
I don't want to be an AMD hater but never forget that AMD still sucks in these departments (I have a 7950x as a server):

Worse Chipset, connected over 4xLanes

Worse storage performance compared to raptor lake

6000Mhz ram speed ceiling, infinity fabric limit

chiplets on mainstream have one GMI link, leading to lower memory bandwidth than raptor lake

Lower memory bandwidth limits the advantage of AVX512

very good gaming but only on x3D, standard parts are a regression compared to raptor lake

slow boot times, memory training

flaky usb speeds that changes with every agesa update due to mainboards integrating many more chips from other vendors compared to Intel.

Issue with 8K polling rate peripherals

very bad IGPU with bad encoder and decoder support, and very bad H.264 quality

I would wait for the 9950x3D or the fix for Arrow Lake.
Of course you could also go all out on a Threadripper 7960x on an Asus SAGE.

I know this is an Intel thread, so I will tread lightly. I mean, I could argue some of these but I'll leave it to one.

very good gaming but only on x3D, standard parts are a regression compared to raptor lake

In what world is that a "regression"? A regression in gaming would be a 14900K to a 285K. AMD hasen't had a regrssion since Bulldozer and even then it depended on the application. This basically reads as AMD sucks because all this, but I'm unbiased because I have a 7950X. @Hulk was right.

gdansk · Nov 15, 2024

Hulk said:
Uh oh, analysis paralysis incoming.

Don't forget Intel sold you broken chips.
Intel doesn't have AVX512 support.
Does AMD need faster than 6000MHz memory to be faster than the 285K in gaming?
Are you using an 8000Hz mouse? Do you plan to?
The slow boot times are an issue that was fixed nearly 2 years ago. It's still slower than Intel DDR5 boards but not a lot.
USB does seem to be an issue for some people.
Are you planning to use a bunch of drives connected to the chipset instead of directly to the CPU?
Do you use your iGPU? You will probably use your graphics card unless you're in an unusual scenario like using a 9950X as a plex server.

Most these criticisms are not relevant to most people. Personally I would take being sold broken chips as a clear message to at least try the competition. But maybe try to wait for the 9950X3D if you care about having 5% better rather than 5% worse gaming performance.

DavidC1 · Nov 15, 2024

511 said:
They themselves don't expect meaningful revenue till 27 so we should know there is nothing material now for external
In comparison to Samsung Intel wins easily just the fact that Intel's own volume is more than Samsung currently(samsung counts internal volume as well in their foundry) they are number 2 foundry and they don't have samsung bad yield hell Intel 3 is already at good D0 and is producing more wafers now and very large one have any of samsung recent node done that ?
It is unfair to samsung 🤣 cause intel is killing it in comparison

Why does that matter? Intel as a whole is actually in some financial trouble while Samsung is a conglomerate and does well in many other markets. Intel is a dedicated computer chip maker where their own product division is reluctant to use the in-house manufacturing division.

It's not even remotely comparable. If Intel Foundry lost internal sales then they are done. Samsung can not only afford to do this, it wasn't their main business anyway.

More importantly, Samsung had and still has notable customers. Intel is at zero.

poke01 · Nov 15, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
flaky usb speeds that changes with every agesa update due to mainboards integrating many more chips from other vendors compared to Intel.

Worse storage performance compared to raptor lake

very bad IGPU with bad encoder and decoder support, and very bad H.264 quality

These are the only big ones for me but none of these is equal to a CPU failing. I would pick AMD anyday over raptor lake

I notice the weak USB speeds. My 7700X system is slower in external SSD R/W than my 2019 i7 9750H Macbook.

DavidC1 · Nov 15, 2024

@Hulk moving away from Intel. Now we know Intel is in real trouble.

511 · Nov 16, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Why does that matter? Intel as a whole is actually in some financial trouble while Samsung is a conglomerate and does well in many other markets. Intel is a dedicated computer chip maker where their own product division is reluctant to use the in-house manufacturing division.

It's not even remotely comparable. If Intel Foundry lost internal sales then they are done. Samsung can not only afford to do this, it wasn't their main business anyway.

More importantly, Samsung had and still has notable customers. Intel is at zero.

If you put entire samsung conglomerate than any company is going to struggle to compete but I won't deny Intel's life hangs on the line and Samsung doesn't but if you compare the foundry part Intel is superior than Samsung

AcrosTinus · Nov 16, 2024

gdansk said:
Don't forget Intel sold you broken chips.
Intel doesn't have AVX512 support.
Does AMD need faster than 6000MHz memory to be faster than the 285K in gaming?
Are you using an 8000Hz mouse? Do you plan to?
The slow boot times are an issue that was fixed nearly 2 years ago. It's still slower than Intel DDR5 boards but not a lot.
USB does seem to be an issue for some people.
Are you planning to use a bunch of drives connected to the chipset instead of directly to the CPU?
Do you use your iGPU? You will probably use your graphics card unless you're in an unusual scenario like using a 9950X as a plex server.

Most these criticisms are not relevant to most people. Personally I would take being sold broken chips as a clear message to at least try the competition. But maybe try to wait for the 9950X3D if you care about having 5% better rather than 5% worse gaming performance.

I never said that these are deal breakers, I even mentioned ahead that I use the 7950x in my server build, hence these are the problems I encounter. Here Intel is still ahead and I guess AMD will catch up as the userbase is steadily increasing.

I was sold broken stuff by AMD as well in the Phenom days, they were failing in a 6M interval but here in Germany, we kept on buying due to the sentiment of supporting the little guy. So one fail from a company does not taint my view of them. These are super complex items where issues are preprogrammed, It even amazes me that things work in the first place.

My encouragement to go 9950x3D still stands, even the 7960x Threadripper route might be viable or the Zen5 version of that.

AcrosTinus · Nov 16, 2024

poke01 said:
These are the only big ones for me but none of these is equal to a CPU failing. I would pick AMD anyday over raptor lake

I notice the weak USB speeds. My 7700X system is slower in external SSD R/W than my 2019 i7 9750H Macbook.

As I said, these are not deal breaker issues, I just encounter them using my AMD server. Each vendor has their pros and cons, I even encouraged to still go AMD if the mentioned issues are minor.

Furthermore don't forget that AMD had CPUs failing too in the past but people forget (Phenom days), I just don't use one fail to call in the death of Intel. If they had 4 generation fail or had a history of that I would agree, but this is one generation and will never use an outlier to destroy Intel's reputation of stability.

True that reputation is now tainted but in all honesty this is the first time in 17 to 20 years I have been dealing with Intel that they even failed this hard in the stability department.

Markfw · Nov 16, 2024

AcrosTinus said:
I never said that these are deal breakers, I even mentioned ahead that I use the 7950x in my server build, hence these are the problems I encounter. Here Intel is still ahead and I guess AMD will catch up as the userbase is steadily increasing.

I was sold broken stuff by AMD as well in the Phenom days, they were failing in a 6M interval but here in Germany, we kept on buying due to the sentiment of supporting the little guy. So one fail from a company does not taint my view of them. These are super complex items where issues are preprogrammed, It even amazes me that things work in the first place.

My encouragement to go 9950x3D still stands, even the 7960x Threadripper route might be viable or the Zen5 version of that.

Where is Intel still ahead ? curious, as I am not aware of any place that they are ahead.

SiliconFly · Nov 16, 2024

Markfw said:
Where is Intel still ahead ? curious, as I am not aware of any place that they are ahead.

Curious, as I am not aware of any place where AMD is ahead. Intel ships more CPUs to OEMs than AMD can even dream of.

AcrosTinus · Nov 16, 2024

Markfw said:
Where is Intel still ahead ? curious, as I am not aware of any place that they are ahead.

Memory bandwidth, storage performance, Encoder/Decoder quality and software support of various IPs.

coercitiv · Nov 16, 2024

Hulk said:
Uh oh, analysis paralysis incoming.

Yeah, I bet all the mice combined in your house can't add up to 8K polling.

Kocicak · Nov 16, 2024

gdansk said:
Don't forget Intel sold you broken chips.

They did not. Stop lying. They are perfectly fine, they are "only" sold with WRONG settings, which will kill them slowly over time. User can CHANGE these settings and get perfectly fine, powerful and efficient CPU.

511 · Nov 16, 2024

Can we skip the Raptor Lake debacle in this thread we have a seperate thread no vendor is clean in this regard point is After Kranzich we had stagnation and what not with intel and ut will take time for them to sort their mess AMD sorted their mess and are in good position now

Kocicak · Nov 16, 2024

Hulk said:
Thank you to the person who told me to ask Intel for a refund. I did just that and they are going to refund me the purchase price of my 14900K. Looks like I'm moving to AMD.

The most clever thing to do: get a new cheap 14700K, pocket the difference, set the frequency limits so that it lasts, enjoy it and start choosing your next platform the next year or even later.

DrMrLordX · Nov 16, 2024

Kocicak said:
They did not. Stop lying.

Oxidation counts as a major defect.

Kocicak · Nov 16, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
Oxidation counts as a major defect.

Yeah, sure. So far the oxidation problem is a tale with no concrete information about what products, batches etc are affected. The products are sold with warranty and only Intel cares about the reasons why their product failed, customer does not need to care - they just get a new CPU.

DrMrLordX · Nov 16, 2024

Kocicak said:
Yeah, sure. So far the oxidation problem is a tale with no concrete information about what products, batches etc are affected.

Intel confirmed that oxidation was a result of mishandling hot lots at one of their fabs. They then refused to reveal which lots were affected.

Hulk · Nov 16, 2024

Kocicak said:
The most clever thing to do: get a new cheap 14700K, pocket the difference, set the frequency limits so that it lasts, enjoy it and start choosing your next platform the next year or even later.

I'm seriously considering this option.

poke01 · Nov 16, 2024

Even 14700K can degrade. At that point move to 12900K/S if you want to use the same motherboard.

Kocicak · Nov 16, 2024

poke01 said:
Even 14700K can degrade. At that point move to 12900K/S if you want to use the same motherboard.

You will have a hard time degrading it at 5 GHz. These chips are very easy to cool, so beside the lower voltage you get a huge benefit of low temps.

511 · Nov 16, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
Intel confirmed that oxidation was a result of mishandling hot lots at one of their fabs. They then refused to reveal which lots were affected.

Some people made it process issue apparently saying Intel 7 is bad

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