Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

Eug · Nov 10, 2020

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:

M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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DrMrLordX · Nov 15, 2024

Eug said:
I noticed that some of the recent Macs people are receiving are coming from Vietnam. I knew they were making iPhones in Vietnam, but I hadn't realized they were making Macs there too. .

Vietnam started picking up business from mobo OEMs years ago. Foxconn probably moved a lot of their production there already.

Doug S · Nov 15, 2024

johnsonwax said:
So, one wrinkle in the tariff situation is that shipments valued under $900 don't need to be inspected by customs. This has a number of consequences:
1) Packages under $900 can be delivered very quickly and inexpensively from China.
2) Packages under $900 can contain, lets say, ingredients to make fentanyl and not be too concerned about being caught at the port (customs _can_ inspect the package, but isn't required to and at several million packages a day, is exceedingly unlikely to be inspected)
3) Packages under $900 can't be assessed for tariffs if they are not inspected.
4) Because of 3) US retailers are basically guaranteed to have to pay tariffs as they are never going to buy less than $900 of a product, while Chinese companies can sell products through Amazon's storefront and so long as Amazon is only doing the logistics, not have their customers have to pay the tariffs.

My guess is that even if the tariffs do arrive (very likely) that there will be storefronts that allow you to buy products under $900 with little chance of having to pay the tariff. These things are not easy to implement to achieve the desired goals, and these people are not particularly competent.

Apple has already moved a lot of their assembly to India, and they can reserve their Chinese assembled goods for other markets and ship to the US from markets where tariffs aren't being applied.

Not that it really matters but the limit limit is $800 not $900. More important there has been some discussion about lowering that limit if punitive tariffs are imposed on China specifically to avoid this sort of thing. Some are saying they may not longer allow the e-packet stuff at all, and require everything from China pass through customs. Yeah I know that's a logistical nightmare but the people coming up with this stuff don't care, that's a feature not a bug in their mind because it would hurt China.

If e-packet goes away then companies like Shein and Temu are done in the US, but if they try to clamp down on tariffs and leave that loophole in place it will be Walmart that gets killed as they'd have to pay the tariffs while Shein/Temu (and Amazon, who just announced "Amazon Haul" today to compete with them) won't.

igor_kavinski · Nov 15, 2024

Eug said:
The NAND module in the Mac mini is upgradable.

Is it not possible to keep all non-OS stuff like applications and data and even swapfile/scratch space on external SSD?

poke01 · Nov 15, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Is it not possible to keep all non-OS stuff like applications and data and even swapfile/scratch space on external SSD?

It is possible. You can also boot from external SSDs and leave the internal SSD unused.

igor_kavinski · Nov 15, 2024

poke01 said:
It is possible. You can also boot from external SSDs and leave the internal SSD unused.

Is it easy to do or is there some complicated trickery involved?

poke01 · Nov 15, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Is it easy to do or is there some complicated trickery involved?

Install macOS on an external storage device and use it as a startup disk – Apple Support (AU)

If you have an external storage device, you can set it up as a Mac startup disk.

support.apple.com

It’s easy

igor_kavinski · Nov 15, 2024

poke01 said:
It’s easy

Nice. So there's hope for prolonging the usable life of the base M4 mini. Thanks!

mvprod123 · Nov 15, 2024

Eug · Nov 15, 2024

So after using this M4 for a week, it actually does feel faster than M1 for even basic daily usage like surfing. I originally didn't think it would feel that different, but it definitely does. I had noticed some of this with my M4 iPad Pro, but I spend less time with that since my work is done on macOS. There are three main upgrades going from my M1 to M4:

1. Memory increased from 16 GB to 24 GB. However, I don't think this accounts for the speedup. With my M1 16 GB, unless I'm doing really heavy multitasking, normally I'd have just perhaps 3-4 GB of compressed memory, and no swap file (or less than 1 GB anyway). With the M4 24 GB, normally I'd have maybe 0-1 GB of compressed memory, and no swap file. I don't think that difference in compressed memory is accounting for the perceived speed difference.

Internet access increased from 0.9 Gbps (Gigabit Ethernet) to 1.9 Gbps (10 GbE). I don't think this has anything to do with it either (although it was nice to get a software update at 160 MB/s the other day).

CPU. This may seem obvious in retrospect, but I think this is it. Single-core speed increased by roughly 55% going from M1 to M4. M1 was already quite fast for daily activities, but M4 dials it up a notch.

igor_kavinski said:
Is it not possible to keep all non-OS stuff like applications and data and even swapfile/scratch space on external SSD?

Yes, although I've heard that a few (poorly coded) applications were a bit temperamental when moved off the internal drive.

Nice. So there's hope for prolonging the usable life of the base M4 mini. Thanks!

For light users, 256 GB in the base model will work, but for me it's tight for the internal drive since I'm already at over 200 GB. I got the 512 GB M4 and for extra storage I'm using a 2 TB Samsung T7 Shield. That's 10 Gbps USB 3.2 gen 2x1 but I will be replacing it with a 40 Gbps 4 TB NVMe SSD in a USB 4 / Thunderbolt 4 enclosure. These enclosures have finally have become inexpensive now, and run at PCIe gen 3 NVMe speeds, around 3200 MB/s. (There are Thunderbolt 5 enclosures available now which run at PCIe gen 4 NVMe speeds, but they are very expensive, and the base Mac mini does not support Thunderbolt 5 anyway.)

I have some data on the internal drive that doesn't need to be there, but I just prefer it to be there. If I moved it off the internal drive, I'd be down to about 150 GB, but that still seems tight for a machine that I plan on keeping a long while.

So while 256 GB will work fine for light users*, I wouldn't recommend it to most users at AnandTech. 512 GB seems to be the sweet spot for a lot of users, effectively increasing the base Mac mini price by US$200 retail.

Because Apple's upgrades are so budgetarily punishing, the one really sad stat is that is actually cheaper to buy TWO base M4 Mac minis than it is to buy one M4 Mac mini with the same total amount of RAM and storage:

$1198 - 2 x Mac mini / M4 / 16 GB / 256 GB
$1199 - 1 x Mac mini / M4 / 32 GB / 512 GB

*I handed my 2017 27" 5K iMac with 1 TB SSD down to my tween son, and here is his usage:

A full install of macOS with the main applications is around 20 GB, so this makes sense. He doesn't have that many third party applications and for the stuff he does have, some of it is web-based anyway.

poke01 said:
It is possible. You can also boot from external SSDs and leave the internal SSD unused.

Yes you can, but if you boot from an eternal SSD, you don't get support for Apple Intelligence for whatever reason.

Meteor Late · Nov 15, 2024

As long as the RAM amount is very decent, like it is now with 16GB base model, this Apple model of extremely expensive upgrades is good if it results in the base models maintaining the price or with very minimal price increases. This model clearly works because some people will pay for the upgrades regardless, and many people don't wanna bother with external storage. But just pay once for a good enclosure and that's it, it will work for future Macs. 8GB RAM was the main issue IMO, not the storage, because you cannot upgrade RAM, you can, however, add external storage.

johnsonwax · Nov 15, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Nice. So there's hope for prolonging the usable life of the base M4 mini. Thanks!

It's just unix, my man. Worst case you can just symlink to the external drive and the OS/apps are none the wiser, provided you aren't trying to move some core OS feature out there like swap. If you can do it on linux, you can do it on MacOS.

mvprod123 · Nov 15, 2024

https://twitter.com/x/status/1857498131144864052

poke01 · Nov 15, 2024

Eug said:
Yes you can, but if you boot from an eternal SSD, you don't get support for Apple Intelligence for whatever reason.

There are hacks to enable that again

poke01 · Nov 15, 2024

M4 Max High power mode

Breaks 500 points in Jetstream 2

Eug · Nov 15, 2024

poke01 said:
View attachment 111641

M4 Max High power mode

Breaks 500 points in Jetstream 2

Damn, my M4 Mac mini with 492 is now sad. Where is that liquid nitrogen when you need it?

(There is no high performance mode setting on the Mac mini.)

Eug · Nov 16, 2024

Five Mac minis racked together consume a combined 29 Watts at idle.

ashFTW · Nov 16, 2024

Eug said:
Five Mac minis racked together consume a combined 29 Watts at idle.

View attachment 111681

Anyone know what he is using as a rack system? I may want to get something like that as well for the lab. Thanks!

poke01 · Nov 16, 2024

So we got M4 Max ffmpeg compilation and LLVM results.

M4max-macos Performance - OpenBenchmarking.org

openbenchmarking.org

So yeah M4 Max destroys 285k and 9950X. Keep in mind its only using up to 60 watts for package power

trivik12 · Nov 16, 2024

This is really bad for x86. At least Intel has been doing bad for past decade(post Skylake only ok release was Alder Lake). Why is AMD struggling to match up to Apple here?

When will Apple update Mac Studio with M4 Max/Ultra. Only con to all this is very high price of M4 Max systems (almost 4K to buy a laptop now). Mac studio with M4 max at 2K would make it better than any desktop computer in the market.

gdansk · Nov 16, 2024

trivik12 said:
Why is AMD struggling to match up to Apple here?

They spend less on R&D than Apple spends on R&D for its speakers and headphones.
And the 9950X is cheap crap to make with 0 possibility of yield problems or needing a KGD contract. 2x70mm² of N4P and 120mm² N6. That it can end up within 10% SPECint rate-1 of a state-of-the-art N3E monolith with a 512-bit bus is a triumph of the penny-pinching profiteering for which Su's AMD is known.

On the other hand there's really no excuse for Strix Point sucking as bad as it does. In GB6 it does better about 25% better in clang MT than the 9600X but that doesn't seem to translate

MS_AT · Nov 16, 2024

poke01 said:
So yeah M4 Max destroys 285k and 9950X. Keep in mind its only using up to 60 watts for package power

And twice the RAM, x64 competition was configured with for the linked results if we want to go deeper into details.

poke01 · Nov 16, 2024

MS_AT said:
And twice the RAM, x64 competition was configured with for the linked results if we want to go deeper into details.

Intel build used 64GB and I doubt using 64GB on 9950X will make it beat the M4 Max let alone make up for the power consumption difference.

Meteor Late · Nov 16, 2024

gdansk said:
They spend less on R&D than Apple spends on R&D for its speakers and headphones.
And the 9950X is cheap crap to make with 0 possibility of yield problems or needing a KGD contract. 2x70mm² of N4P and 120mm² N6. That it can end up within 10% SPECint rate-1 of a state-of-the-art N3E monolith with a 512-bit bus is a triumph of the penny-pinching profiteering for which Su's AMD is known.

On the other hand there's really no excuse for Strix Point sucking as bad as it does. In GB6 it does better about 25% better in clang MT than the 9600X but that doesn't seem to translate

The 512-bit bus is mainly for the iGPU, those are CPU tests. Yeah maybe in a long list of tests, 1 or 2 would benefit from the higher bandwidth, but on average it won't be relevant.

gdansk · Nov 16, 2024

Meteor Late said:
The 512-bit bus is mainly for the iGPU, those are CPU tests. Yeah maybe in a long list of tests, 1 or 2 would benefit from the higher bandwidth, but on average it won't be relevant.

It's compilation? Memory matters here.
The idea the memory bandwidth doesn't help here is dispelled by the larger difference between Max and Pro as well.

Doug S · Nov 17, 2024

trivik12 said:
This is really bad for x86. At least Intel has been doing bad for past decade(post Skylake only ok release was Alder Lake). Why is AMD struggling to match up to Apple here?

When will Apple update Mac Studio with M4 Max/Ultra. Only con to all this is very high price of M4 Max systems (almost 4K to buy a laptop now). Mac studio with M4 max at 2K would make it better than any desktop computer in the market.

If we believe the rumors, not until next summer. I honestly have no idea why the delay, unless M4 Ultra will be its own die instead of two M4 Max glued together and that chip isn't ready yet.

Has anyone seen M4 Max die photos posted anywhere yet?

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