Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

gdansk · Nov 17, 2024

511 said:
The best bet is 14700K on Black friday safer than 14900K and he saves money for future upgrade

A better bet is a $125 12700K from Best Buy (but they're all sold out). No known issues - it is already pre-tuned to safe voltages.

Or perhaps to stop sinking money in the platform of endless returns.

511 · Nov 17, 2024

gdansk said:
A better bet is a $125 12700K from Best Buy (but they're all sold out). No known issues - it is already pre-tuned to safe voltages.

Or perhaps to stop sinking money in the platform of endless returns.

What if we get $200 13700K 🙂 on black friday if he has the money go AMD best choice my best advice can be wait for black friday buy 13700K/14700K cheap

SiliconFly · Nov 17, 2024

511 said:
The best bet is 14700K on Black friday safer than 14900K and he saves money for future upgrade

Both, 14700K & 9800X3D are a step down in general application performance. He's a power user who's very much capable of tweaking CPU clocks, memory clocks, etc. Combined with the Intel bios updates & clock limits, a new & free replacement 14900K should perform well for a long time. That too with better application performance than 14700K & 9800X3D without spending any money. Why regress? Not necessary IMHO.

511 · Nov 17, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Both, 14700K & 9800X3D are a step down in general application performance. He's a power user who's very much capable of tweaking CPU clocks, memory clocks, etc. Combined with the Intel bios updates & clock limits, a new & free replacement 14900K should perform well for a long time. That too with better application performance than 14700K & 9800X3D without spending any money. Why regress? Not necessary IMHO.

9800X3D is straight downgrade for productivity compared to either of those at least 14700K is not that bad in productivity

maddie · Nov 17, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Rubbish. A new 14900K with all the fixes shouldn't pose any problems at all. What else do you suggest, some silly amd processor?

Try the old adage, "when in a hole, stop digging".

What is the supposed Einstein quote? The definition of madness is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result. Is that it?

Your posts though, are quite funny, even if maybe not intended. Userbenchmark level stuff to be honest. A blast.

SiliconFly · Nov 17, 2024

511 said:
9800X3D is straight downgrade for productivity compared to either of those at least 14700K is not that bad in productivity

People who recommend 9800X3D don't really realize that. Thats the reason I mentioned a free 14900K cos no regression.

SiliconFly · Nov 17, 2024

maddie said:
Try the old adage, "when in a hole, stop digging".

What is the supposed Einstein quote? The definition of madness is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result. Is that it?

Your posts though, are quite funny, even if maybe not intended. Userbenchmark level stuff to be honest. A blast.

And yours is even more hilarious. Using a new 14900K with new Intel bios updates & with a ring clock limit isn't the same as before! And recommending a slower amd 9800X3D,, thats digging a hole. Truly Userbenchmark level!

maddie · Nov 17, 2024

511 said:
9800X3D is straight downgrade for productivity compared to either of those at least 14700K is not that bad in productivity

True, but in January we should have an leading candidate appearing for both worlds.

maddie · Nov 17, 2024

SiliconFly said:
And yours is even more hilarious. Using a new 14900K with new Intel bios updates & with a ring clock limit isn't the same as before! And recommending a slower amd 9800X3D,, thats digging a hole. Truly Userbenchmark level!

Now this is a strawman level post. Where did I recommend the 9800X3D? Please refer to that post.

I get your "enthusiasm", but this is a whole new level. Not a higher one, in case its misunderstood.

Hulk · Nov 17, 2024

I really don't want my dilemna to create any hostile or vitriolic discussion. I appreciate the opinion of every person who has commented. Each one has merit. Let's face it, everybody here is quite intelligent. Opinionated too, which is why we butt heads at times. As long as it remains friendly and productive it's a good thing. Like a good chess match.

The financially smart thing to do would probably be to take my $570 refund and buy an inexpensive Raptor CPU that can see me through until I really have to upgrade because something so much better is out there. Or take the $570 and buy a $420 14900K at MicroCenter, pocket the diffference and run it long term with a 5GHz cap. Both are good options.

As an enthusiast, and someone who has never had an AMD system, and based on the compute power of Zen 5 I am leaning toward building a 9950X based rig. Only minor concern I have is I have heard that Zen 5 can be tough to cool from a hotspot point of view, not total thermal load. I'd like to stay on air and honestly if I could get 5GHz all-core with my Assassin cooler (with good temps), I'd be quite happy. From what I've heard it seems like that is doable.

Markfw · Nov 17, 2024

Hulk said:
I really don't want my dilemna to create any hostile or vitriolic discussion. I appreciate the opinion of every person who has commented. Each one has merit. Let's face it, everybody here is quite intelligent. Opinionated too, which is why we butt heads at times. As long as it remains friendly and productive it's a good thing. Like a good chess match.

The financially smart thing to do would probably be to take my $570 refund and buy an inexpensive Raptor CPU that can see me through until I really have to upgrade because something so much better is out there. Or take the $570 and buy a $420 14900K at MicroCenter, pocket the diffference and run it long term with a 5GHz cap. Both are good options.

As an enthusiast, and someone who has never had an AMD system, and based on the compute power of Zen 5 I am leaning toward building a 9950X based rig. Only minor concern I have is I have heard that Zen 5 can be tough to cool from a hotspot point of view, not total thermal load. I'd like to stay on air and honestly if I could get 5GHz all-core with my Assassin cooler (with good temps), I'd be quite happy. From what I've heard it seems like that is doable.

I have a $34 cooler, and its been up since day one and no issues. Oh, and at 100% load no less.

Edit: my cooler is an assassin dual 120 fans. sounds like you already have that. This one ?

Amazon.com

Hulk · Nov 17, 2024

Markfw said:
I have a $34 cooler, and its been up since day one and no issues. Oh, and at 100% load no less.

Edit: my cooler is an assassin dual 120 fans. sounds like you already have that. This one ?

Amazon.com

Yup, the black version of that one. Thanks. I should be fine.

OneEng2 · Nov 17, 2024

Hulk said:
I really don't want my dilemna to create any hostile or vitriolic discussion. I appreciate the opinion of every person who has commented. Each one has merit. Let's face it, everybody here is quite intelligent. Opinionated too, which is why we butt heads at times. As long as it remains friendly and productive it's a good thing. Like a good chess match.

The financially smart thing to do would probably be to take my $570 refund and buy an inexpensive Raptor CPU that can see me through until I really have to upgrade because something so much better is out there. Or take the $570 and buy a $420 14900K at MicroCenter, pocket the diffference and run it long term with a 5GHz cap. Both are good options.

As an enthusiast, and someone who has never had an AMD system, and based on the compute power of Zen 5 I am leaning toward building a 9950X based rig. Only minor concern I have is I have heard that Zen 5 can be tough to cool from a hotspot point of view, not total thermal load. I'd like to stay on air and honestly if I could get 5GHz all-core with my Assassin cooler (with good temps), I'd be quite happy. From what I've heard it seems like that is doable.

Agree.

Seems like for productuctivity alone, the new Intel Core Ultra 285K is a solid processor, but still behind the 9950x (according to Tom's) by a bit overall.

For gaming, the 9800X3D is simply unstoppable with no competition (other than more X3D chips to be released soon) on the horizon.

For saving the most money, I totally agree that just replacing your existing processor with another one similar to it and keeping it clocked down is the most cost effective solution (but least gratifying for an enthusiast ).

If you can wait a bit, it is possible that the ultimate solution would be a 9950X3D which would (in theory) best everything at everything (for the most part).... but one has to wonder what an "end-all-be-all" processor might cost!

As for getting all cores up to 5Ghz on a 9950x, some theory I have heard is that they bin one good CCD and another less good bin one for the 2nd CCD. I don't know if it is true or not, and am not sure if there is any way to figure it out though a benchmark database.

On topic on this thread, I have heard a rumor that there are some issues with the 285K that may require a tune down? Not sure where I read it, but if someone would confirm or deny it, that would be great.

As for trusting another 14700K, after a few of them, I might give up myself.

OneEng2 · Nov 17, 2024

511 said:
The best bet is 14700K on Black friday safer than 14900K and he saves money for future upgrade just buy Zen6 when it comes out

Might be able to just drop a Zen 6 into AM5 if he had that now.

Also, no one buys a 14900K or considers a 9950x who is concerned about saving money on a computing purchase. Of course, everyone's situation is different and changes with the times as well.

LightningZ71 · Nov 17, 2024

You could just go with the 14900t...

It's not on the list of affected processors and is quite efficient...

I kid!!!

Thunder 57 · Nov 17, 2024

Hulk said:
I really don't want my dilemna to create any hostile or vitriolic discussion. I appreciate the opinion of every person who has commented. Each one has merit. Let's face it, everybody here is quite intelligent. Opinionated too, which is why we butt heads at times. As long as it remains friendly and productive it's a good thing. Like a good chess match.

The financially smart thing to do would probably be to take my $570 refund and buy an inexpensive Raptor CPU that can see me through until I really have to upgrade because something so much better is out there. Or take the $570 and buy a $420 14900K at MicroCenter, pocket the diffference and run it long term with a 5GHz cap. Both are good options.

As an enthusiast, and someone who has never had an AMD system, and based on the compute power of Zen 5 I am leaning toward building a 9950X based rig. Only minor concern I have is I have heard that Zen 5 can be tough to cool from a hotspot point of view, not total thermal load. I'd like to stay on air and honestly if I could get 5GHz all-core with my Assassin cooler (with good temps), I'd be quite happy. From what I've heard it seems like that is doable.

Very respectable post. Also, you play chess? I used to be really into that when I was younger. Fun game.

FlameTail · Nov 17, 2024

Lunar Lake introduced several new innovations that are the pillars to it's spectacular efficiency:

• SoC architecture focused on low power, with aggressive power gating, more power rails, new display controllers and media engines, etc...

• On-package memory.

• PMICs.

• Cluster of 4 LPE cores.

• CPU, GPU and NPU in one tile.

How many of these will Panther Lake keep?

vanplayer · Nov 17, 2024

FlameTail said:
Lunar Lake introduced several new innovations that are the pillars to it's spectacular efficiency:

• SoC architecture focused on low power, with aggressive power gating, more power rails, new display controllers and media engines, etc...

• On-package memory.

• PMICs.

• Cluster of 4 LPE cores.

• CPU, GPU and NPU in one tile.

How many of these will Panther Lake keep?

No packaged memory anymore.

511 · Nov 17, 2024

FlameTail said:
Lunar Lake introduced several new innovations that are the pillars to it's spectacular efficiency:

• SoC architecture focused on low power, with aggressive power gating, more power rails, new display controllers and media engines, etc...

• On-package memory.

• PMICs.

• Cluster of 4 LPE cores.

• CPU, GPU and NPU in one tile.

How many of these will Panther Lake keep?

PTL will have newer display/media engine and SLC like Lunar lake
On package memory is gone for PTL
PMICs maybe it is upto vendor cause MTL-U supports PMIC as well
It will have 4 improved LPE cores
CPU+NPU+IMC on a single tile GPU tile is different allowing you to shut it off

511 · Nov 18, 2024

ARL-U SKU(RWC+ and CMT+)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1858299099608752597

The frequency increase is more than the node (18%) gains lmao at 12/15W

FlameTail · Nov 18, 2024

511 said:
PTL will have newer display/media engine and SLC like Lunar lake
On package memory is gone for PTL
PMICs maybe it is upto vendor cause MTL-U supports PMIC as well
It will have 4 improved LPE cores
CPU+NPU+IMC on a single tile GPU tile is different allowing you to shut it off

Why would you shut off the GPU? It's needed for rendering even the desktop UI, no?

511 · Nov 18, 2024

FlameTail said:
Why would you shut off the GPU? It's needed for rendering even the desktop UI, no?

That is the display/media engines not the GPU cores for 3D rendering Yotube is basically media/display engines

LightningZ71 · Nov 18, 2024

511 said:
ARL-U SKU(RWC+ and CMT+)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1858299099608752597
The frequency increase is more than the node (18%) gains lmao at 12/15W
View attachment 111768

That should make for some interesting benchmark comparisons...

511 · Nov 18, 2024

LightningZ71 said:
That should make for some interesting benchmark comparisons...

Yes if it turns out to be 20-25% better by simply moving to Intel 3 than Intel 3 is simply a full node worth of PPW improved arch I don't know how much they can improve it 🤪

DavidC1 · Nov 18, 2024

511 said:
ARL-U SKU(RWC+ and CMT+)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1858299099608752597
The frequency increase is more than the node (18%) gains lmao at 12/15W
View attachment 111768

I think in addition to the circuitry improvements, Intel 4 didn't fully live up to expectations in Meteorlake due to the delay and struggles so Intel 3 looks better.

The great increase in base clocks suggest the power profile is much better on ARL-U.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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