What are realistic expectations when negotiating for a new car?

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DaaQ

Golden Member
Dec 8, 2018
1,568
1,139
136
Didn't you read my post earlier. You give them zero information. When they ask you how much you want to pay a month. That is code for hiding the true car purchase price in the monthly payment. By not answering that question you take away their ability to manipulate you and the true price of the car. By removing the dealership from financing the car. They cannot hide the purchase price in the numbers. Getting financing through the car company is like paying cash for a car. It's out of their hands and they get a standard commission from Kia. They make their money on selling you financing and hiding the numbers within a monthly payment. After that they make their money in the service/repair side of things.

A 30,000 car loan @ 3.9% for 48 months is $677 per month.
I think you missed the part were I am able to get less than dealer invoice on new vehicles for my 12 years of service to a particular company.

I think you misunderstood what I said, which is DO NOT give the dealership an idea what you are willing to pay, NOR what you consider acceptable per month on the financing. They then start to manipulate you into a higher commission product, never mind the dealer add ons.

Yes I did not read your earlier post, and reading this one seems like we are pretty much saying the same thing. IMO.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,139
6,029
126
I don't have a "how much do you want to pay a month" price so that question will be moot. If they ask me that I will flat out tell them it doesn't matter, the total amount that I am financing matters. I remember my wife did this like 20 years ago negotiating for a used car at the dealership and they came back with the $X/monthly payment we wanted and it was for like 7 years instead of the 4 years we wanted, and it was such a stupid negotiation and we walked away.

Then like 2 days later they called her and gave us what we wanted lol.

I will decide how much I want to pay monthly after we land on a final price.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,661
13,012
146
Last year we went to buy a Hyundai Ionic 5. They lowballed the hell out of me on my trade. I asked them, "Is that your final offer?" When they said yes, I stood up, thanked them for their time...we walked out. Sales manager chased us to my truck...kept trying to get the deal back on track...I just drove away.
They called a couple of times the next week, even raised the offer on my trade in to about what I wanted...but it was too late. I gave them their chance.

Last week, when I went to test drive the F150 Lightning, the dealership did the same thing...offered me about $8,000 less on my trade in than it's worth...and wouldn't drop their selling price. (it's a balance between selling price and trade in) I explained what had happened with the Hyundai...gave them the chance to offer me either a better trade in or a lower price for the truck. They said they couldn't do it, so I collected my free turkey breast, (that pissed me off...it was supposed to be a whole turkey) and left. The salesman called me Tuesday evening wanting to put the deal back together. I told him they had their chance, but thanks for calling.
This morning, I got an email from the dealership...they've dropped the selling price (new Ford incentives) by $4,000. IF I could get their trade in price up another $6000-$8000...I might get it. 1.9% financing for 84 months...damn sweet deal. ALMOST as good as my current 0%/84 months I have now.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,139
6,029
126
Be sure you ask your insurance how much it would be to insure it too before you buy it. Heard stories of people being surprised by the jump in rates.
Yah that is a very good point and something I thought about yesterday. I am going to be shopping around in general for new insurance I think because Geico has upped my rate for no reason the past couple of years and I've just been too lazy to change it.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,661
13,012
146
Yah that is a very good point and something I thought about yesterday. I am going to be shopping around in general for new insurance I think because Geico has upped my rate for no reason the past couple of years and I've just been too lazy to change it.
I’ve had State Farm since we moved back to WA almost 12 years ago. Rates were good…until this year. My F150 with zero accidents or tickets, driving less than 10,000 miles per year…$190/ month. I’m looking for a new company. Flo says less than $100/month…and their homeowners policy is a bit cheaper too.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,139
6,029
126
So I straight up asked the manager via email how much he could sell me the car for after telling him I saw other dealerships selling them for $45k - $47k, and he came back and told me he could do $48k + tax/fees. He also said that those other dealerships have some extra rebates they can give on certain models of 2024 models which is why they can go lower, but he couldn't do it for that specific car. Kind of odd because it is the exact same car as the others, just different colors. He also asked me if i was in the military due to incentives and then asked me if I'm financing. He did say in this same email though these exact words:

"I'd still love for your wife to test drive the vehicle here with us if you have time this weekend. Your leverage is at its best when you are here in front of me twisting my arm to make a deal happen."

I replied back asking what the total fees would be and that even at $48k, with tax alone it's already over my range. I also told him that I'm not in the military and that I do plan on financing.

He replied back saying the total cost would be $52,234.50 including all taxes and fees. MD tax is 6% so $2880 of that is taxes. So basically like $1354 in other fees, which include the title/tags/dealer fees. I know the tags are $120 so that means like $1234 are just some dealer fees. He did ask me how much I plan on financing as well, which I have not replied to yet.

I plan on telling him I am not sure yet about the financing option and that I am looking to spend under $50k out the door. So basically unless he can find somewhere to get the price down by $2234.50, he is most likely not going to get a sale on this car.
 

Dr. Detroit

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2004
8,282
742
126
Since you like the Telluride - check the Honda Pilot. End of year discounts are usually $4K and 0% for 36-month financing.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,390
11,411
136
So I straight up asked the manager via email how much he could sell me the car for after telling him I saw other dealerships selling them for $45k - $47k, and he came back and told me he could do $48k + tax/fees. He also said that those other dealerships have some extra rebates they can give on certain models of 2024 models which is why they can go lower, but he couldn't do it for that specific car. Kind of odd because it is the exact same car as the others, just different colors. He also asked me if i was in the military due to incentives and then asked me if I'm financing. He did say in this same email though these exact words:

"I'd still love for your wife to test drive the vehicle here with us if you have time this weekend. Your leverage is at its best when you are here in front of me twisting my arm to make a deal happen."

I replied back asking what the total fees would be and that even at $48k, with tax alone it's already over my range. I also told him that I'm not in the military and that I do plan on financing.

He replied back saying the total cost would be $52,234.50 including all taxes and fees. MD tax is 6% so $2880 of that is taxes. So basically like $1354 in other fees, which include the title/tags/dealer fees. I know the tags are $120 so that means like $1234 are just some dealer fees. He did ask me how much I plan on financing as well, which I have not replied to yet.

I plan on telling him I am not sure yet about the financing option and that I am looking to spend under $50k out the door. So basically unless he can find somewhere to get the price down by $2234.50, he is most likely not going to get a sale on this car.
personally, my approach at this point would be "my price is $50k OTD. make it happen and you have the sale" and leave it at that. they might hem and haw and grumble, but at the end of the day it's very simple. they can either get the sale. or not.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,139
6,029
126
personally, my approach at this point would be "my price is $50k OTD. make it happen and you have the sale" and leave it at that. they might hem and haw and grumble, but at the end of the day it's very simple. they can either get the sale. or not.
Yep that is basically my plan going in on tomorrow.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,139
6,029
126
Since you like the Telluride - check the Honda Pilot. End of year discounts are usually $4K and 0% for 36-month financing.
Yah those were on my list but after getting inside a Telluride and then doing some research, the general consensus seems to be that the Telluride feels like a luxury car and going to the other brands in the same class they just don't feel like the same quality. Based on the pics on Honda's website of the Pilot I like the interior/looks of the Telluride better.

And I don't know what it is but the Telluride doesn't "feel" like a big SUV and doesn't look like it from the outside. But inside it just feels much larger than it looks.
 

DaaQ

Golden Member
Dec 8, 2018
1,568
1,139
136
Yah those were on my list but after getting inside a Telluride and then doing some research, the general consensus seems to be that the Telluride feels like a luxury car and going to the other brands in the same class they just don't feel like the same quality. Based on the pics on Honda's website of the Pilot I like the interior/looks of the Telluride better.

And I don't know what it is but the Telluride doesn't "feel" like a big SUV and doesn't look like it from the outside. But inside it just feels much larger than it looks.
No clue what a Lincoln Aviator would be on Xplan, but it is for sure a luxury vehicle. No Idea on the MSRP either. Same platform as the Explorer. PM me if it may be an option. Might be able to discount it. But the only negotiating is the trade in. It is a set price for F&F.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,661
13,012
146
No clue what a Lincoln Aviator would be on Xplan, but it is for sure a luxury vehicle. No Idea on the MSRP either. Same platform as the Explorer. PM me if it may be an option. Might be able to discount it. But the only negotiating is the trade in. It is a set price for F&F.
Looks like (for my zip code) starting prices are between $53K and $79K, depending on trim package and options.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,297
30,316
146
All those questions are meaningless. What are you looking to spend has nothing to do with the price that you will pay for a vehicle. Keep doing your research and figure out exactly what model you want. Tell the dealers to communicate with you via email only until they make you an offer that you are willing to accept. You have to take control of the situation with these clowns. We need to know are you paying cash or are you financing the vehicle. If you are financing the best option is always through the manufacturer. If you have financing lined up with a bank, you are good. Car dealers will use fuzzy logic and absurd math to screw you on financing. You would need a forensic accountant to figure out their creative financing.

If they say the doc fee is non negotiable, understood. You take off that fee from your offer price plus another $200 inconvenience fee for your headache. Always be willing to walk away and always be willing do sign documents when you get the price you want. The end of the month is when you want to negotiate a best price because they want to hit their sales numbers. Always remind them the economy is in the dump and nobody is buying cars.

Good advice. I bought my current car in 2019, and the market was a bit easier I think. Well, if it's bad as you say right now for dealers, maybe it's comparable. End of the month and end of the year--always the best time.

I was able to take advantage of the DC region having tons and tons of VW dealerships, so there was a huge amount of price competition already, making it a bit easy for me to dictate the price that I wanted. I spent maybe 10 or 15 minutes at the closest dealerships and didn't really like talking to those guys, so I ignored them. I started calling dealers further away from me until I got a few that would agree to negotiate over the phone and at least make offers. The GTI that I got had an MSRP of $34k at the time. In the end, I told them that I didn't want to pay more than $29k, all in, doc fees whatever. This wasn't that unreasonable for known local sales for this model of GTI. The one that I eventually bought it from laughed a bit and said they couldn't do that. 4 days later, on a Monday, they called me and said they could do that price and could I come by today, so I did. They had sold the one that I wanted (color), but picked one up from a nearby dealership and sold that one to me. It was mostly painless going in to make the purchase--it was only that they had one finance officer in, 2 people ahead of me, and the first person was just getting railed or something. We were waiting for that idiot for like 1 hour to finish the deal. It was nuts. Took me like 10 minutes to sign and get out.

Couple of extras, though: manufacturer financing are the best deals, usually, but the dealers don't like to work with you on purchase price so much when you go with that offer. Just take their junk financing if it's a condition of purchase price. You can always go straight home and switch your loan to a better one that you want. This costs nothing in the end. Get pre-approved for what you want and know that you will use that in the end. Honestly, the financing they offered me wasn't bad at all, but I switched it out anyway just out of spite, haha.

Also, extended warranties on new cars are, of course, a scam. It's adding about $3k to your purchase price. The primary role of the finance office is to sell you these things. That's all they care about. Saying no to this and walking out with the price you agreed on is where all the time and effort will go in closing. So, definitely don't do this but also....just accept it if you're annoyed with them and walk out. Thing is, it's federal law that all extended warranties, any state, are easily cancellable and refundable as a percentage of how long it's been active. I think it's something like within the first 2 payments, you can refund 100% of the total cost of the extended warranty, and it's quite painless to do. So, of course don't take the warranty, but it if somehow becomes a condition of the price that they want to sell to you, then just take it. It's actually really really really satisfying to then refund it to yourself later, knowing that they just lost that commission, lol.
 

DaaQ

Golden Member
Dec 8, 2018
1,568
1,139
136
Good advice. I bought my current car in 2019, and the market was a bit easier I think. Well, if it's bad as you say right now for dealers, maybe it's comparable. End of the month and end of the year--always the best time.

I was able to take advantage of the DC region having tons and tons of VW dealerships, so there was a huge amount of price competition already, making it a bit easy for me to dictate the price that I wanted. I spent maybe 10 or 15 minutes at the closest dealerships and didn't really like talking to those guys, so I ignored them. I started calling dealers further away from me until I got a few that would agree to negotiate over the phone and at least make offers. The GTI that I got had an MSRP of $34k at the time. In the end, I told them that I didn't want to pay more than $29k, all in, doc fees whatever. This wasn't that unreasonable for known local sales for this model of GTI. The one that I eventually bought it from laughed a bit and said they couldn't do that. 4 days later, on a Monday, they called me and said they could do that price and could I come by today, so I did. They had sold the one that I wanted (color), but picked one up from a nearby dealership and sold that one to me. It was mostly painless going in to make the purchase--it was only that they had one finance officer in, 2 people ahead of me, and the first person was just getting railed or something. We were waiting for that idiot for like 1 hour to finish the deal. It was nuts. Took me like 10 minutes to sign and get out.

Couple of extras, though: manufacturer financing are the best deals, usually, but the dealers don't like to work with you on purchase price so much when you go with that offer. Just take their junk financing if it's a condition of purchase price. You can always go straight home and switch your loan to a better one that you want. This costs nothing in the end. Get pre-approved for what you want and know that you will use that in the end. Honestly, the financing they offered me wasn't bad at all, but I switched it out anyway just out of spite, haha.

Also, extended warranties on new cars are, of course, a scam. It's adding about $3k to your purchase price. The primary role of the finance office is to sell you these things. That's all they care about. Saying no to this and walking out with the price you agreed on is where all the time and effort will go in closing. So, definitely don't do this but also....just accept it if you're annoyed with them and walk out. Thing is, it's federal law that all extended warranties, any state, are easily cancellable and refundable as a percentage of how long it's been active. I think it's something like within the first 2 payments, you can refund 100% of the total cost of the extended warranty, and it's quite painless to do. So, of course don't take the warranty, but it if somehow becomes a condition of the price that they want to sell to you, then just take it. It's actually really really really satisfying to then refund it to yourself later, knowing that they just lost that commission, lol.
IRCC Kia at least used to have the best warranty out there. I remember when they first broke into the Detroit area it was 10 years bumper to bumper. No clue if it's still that though.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,568
31,324
136
Follow Hans' advice, he knows his shit. I was able to negotiate a 2014 CRV top level trim fully loaded back then down to almost $27K when sticker was almost $34K. I did that by playing 2 dealers against each other. Was also able to get them to finance through their employee credit union for 2.9% when best the manufacturer could do was like 4 or 5%.

When I bought my 2024 Tucson Hybrid last November it was a different story. I wanted the Sportage but those were flying off the lots at $5K over MSRP! I was able to get the Tucson for MSRP. They would not budge on the price. Best I could do was all weather mats thrown in.

However, I was able to get them on the trade-in. When I was first test driving vehicles I was at a different dealer. I asked them to give me their lowest price in writing. Since they knew I wasn't buying that day they put in writing my estimate for my trade-in at $10K. When I went to the local dealer to finally buy I had that in writing so they gave me $10K. The trade-in in reality was likely only worth $3-4K.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,568
31,324
136
IRCC Kia at least used to have the best warranty out there. I remember when they first broke into the Detroit area it was 10 years bumper to bumper. No clue if it's still that though.
Kia and Hyundai both still have 10 year. I don't know if it is bumper to bumper though. I think it's just power train.
 
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manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
12,185
3,108
136
Reactions: DaaQ

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,139
6,029
126
The new Kia's have a lifetime warranty on the drivetrain and then some other 1 year warranty. I forget the details of that but I do recall them telling me that.

On my current car I got a stupid extended warranty and also for the wheels. I curbed one of my wheels and made a claim to them and I literally never heard back from them. I called them back and they wouldn't answer. It added like $40/month to my payment so that times 48 was the total cost of that waste of money.

Needless to say I will NEVER buy another extended warranty on a vehicle.
 
Dec 10, 2005
25,509
8,928
136
Needless to say I will NEVER buy another extended warranty on a vehicle.
Generally, extended warranties on anything are a waste of money. Take the money saved on not buying them and bank it as a form of a self-insurance.

I feel like a great counter to the extended warranty stuff is also: "Is there something wrong with the quality of this [insert whatever] that I should be worried?"
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,139
6,029
126
Actually:

Maybe it is specific to this dealership then. I am positive they verbally told me lifetime drivetrain warranty with something else for 1 year. It may have been all maintenance is included for 1 year. Either way I'll clear it up if I make an actual purchase. I couldn't go today with my wife to check the specific model out so we're going on Tuesday, as long as it doesn't sell by then.

EDIT:

Actually looking at your link, they call the 10 year/100k mile warranty a "powertrain lifetime warranty" so that must be what he was referring to. That is a bit shady name wise.

EDIT 2:

Jesus I can't read - it says "powertrain limited warranty" so maybe it is something different still. If I recall though he said "lifetime drivetrain warranty" verbally to me.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
12,185
3,108
136
Maybe it is specific to this dealership then. I am positive they verbally told me lifetime drivetrain warranty with something else for 1 year. It may have been all maintenance is included for 1 year. Either way I'll clear it up if I make an actual purchase. I couldn't go today with my wife to check the specific model out so we're going on Tuesday, as long as it doesn't sell by then.

EDIT:

Actually looking at your link, they call the 10 year/100k mile warranty a "powertrain lifetime warranty" so that must be what he was referring to. That is a bit shady name wise.
Car salesmen do this all the time. Just be glad it's not a used car saleman. 🤣 In theory, a stealership could offer more than the Kia national warranty, but I'd have to have that in writing. The kia dot com warranty page is authoritative.

As an aside, BMW says its automatic transmission fluid is "lifetime" and never requires servicing. What they actually mean is that there is no scheduled maintenance, so if the transmission ultimately fails, you replace the whole thing.
Last time I paid for an ATF drain/fill on a Honda Accord, I think it was about $40. For a 3 Series, the entire filter pan has to go and IIRC a shop will charge nearly $1000 all-in. (So most BMW owners just ignore it.)

Good luck!
 
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