Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

SteinFG · Monday at 9:04 AM

511 said:
Yeah skatterbench said it's the V/F curve that is getting the changes that is quite the news lol

https://twitter.com/x/status/1860847507653456015

skatterbencher is an extreme OC guy, so the disappointment may be related to that. Doubt he really cares about default operation

ondma · Monday at 9:57 AM

511 said:
Yeah skatterbench said it's the V/F curve that is getting the changes that is quite the news lol

https://twitter.com/x/status/1860847507653456015

May help with stability issues, but I dont see how that will solve the performance issues, particularly the horribly poor and inconsistent gaming performance.

511 · Monday at 10:09 AM

RTX said:
Intel's competitors can find out after doing teardowns of PTL/CWF.

The only competitors are TSMC/Samsung

igor_kavinski · Monday at 12:34 PM

511 said:
The only competitors are TSMC/Samsung

Japan may be entering the silicon fabbing game soon.

They seem to be in a real hurry. Even call the company Rapidus!

Just imagine if they develop their own unique and original path towards sub nm process and then suddenly, Taiwan's reputation as the leader in semicon tech takes a hit, just like that.

OneEng2 · Monday at 1:04 PM

igor_kavinski said:
Japan may be entering the silicon fabbing game soon.

They seem to be in a real hurry. Even call the company Rapidus!

Just imagine if they develop their own unique and original path towards sub nm process and then suddenly, Taiwan's reputation as the leader in semicon tech takes a hit, just like that.

I suspect it isn't that easy to do and would take a decade to build from the ground up.

controlflow · Monday at 1:09 PM

ASUS BIOS update released in beta and it seems to contain the new microcode update.

Re: ArrowLake Resources

ROG MAXIMUS/STRIX/PROART Z890 Series Beta Bios 1101 01. Update microcode to 113 02. Improve system performance DO NOT UNZIP (EZFLASH Support zip file) ROG MAXIMUS Z890 HERO Beta Bios 1101 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_aUqqsFtWMA0ecMvffFs4AHfHAWRfx_g/view?usp=sharing ROG MAXIMUS Z890 APEX...

rog-forum.asus.com

It mentions "Improve system performance".

There is also this https://www.asrock.com/news/index.asp?iD=5548

ASRock claims up to 13% improved gaming performance from enabling this PPM driver.

igor_kavinski · Monday at 1:25 PM

Wonder what the BIOS does if just a driver is improving performance that much...

Saylick · Monday at 1:43 PM

igor_kavinski said:
How are the supposed changes big? Is this going to be a rehash of RPL issue where Intel determines that the CPU can take greater voltage spikes in the short term but long term it gets cooked? Only way it would be "big changes" is if they manage to beat 14900KS gaming scores in every game.

Looks like Intel is bringing forward their ARL ~~refresh~~ *ahem* I mean microcode update since it's not selling as well as they hoped. /s

SiliconFly · Monday at 3:10 PM

controlflow said:
ASUS BIOS update released in beta and it seems to contain the new microcode update.

Re: ArrowLake Resources

ROG MAXIMUS/STRIX/PROART Z890 Series Beta Bios 1101 01. Update microcode to 113 02. Improve system performance DO NOT UNZIP (EZFLASH Support zip file) ROG MAXIMUS Z890 HERO Beta Bios 1101 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_aUqqsFtWMA0ecMvffFs4AHfHAWRfx_g/view?usp=sharing ROG MAXIMUS Z890 APEX...

rog-forum.asus.com

It mentions "Improve system performance".

There is also this https://www.asrock.com/news/index.asp?iD=5548

ASRock claims up to 13% improved gaming performance from enabling this PPM driver.

Well, it actually looks more like word play: "Up to 13.23% improvement in gaming performance".

(Meaning, maybe only one game managed 13.23% gain.)

And sadly, there is no mention of any improvement in general application performance.

LightningZ71 · Monday at 4:01 PM

igor_kavinski said:
Japan may be entering the silicon fabbing game soon.

They seem to be in a real hurry. Even call the company Rapidus!

Just imagine if they develop their own unique and original path towards sub nm process and then suddenly, Taiwan's reputation as the leader in semicon tech takes a hit, just like that.

Rapidus, in name, may only be 2 years old, but their components are well established in the industry, including IBM's litho research and companies like NES, kioxia and denso. If anyone can take even a small bite of the market, they're going to be the ones to do it.

igor_kavinski · 2024-11-26T04:31:05-0500

Has it been discussed here that Intel seemingly prioritized a Cinebench win for Arrow Lake during design phase over anything else? Could this have blindsided them in other aspects of CPU performance?

dttprofessor · 2024-11-26T04:36:07-0500

arl is waiting 24h2 update

igor_kavinski · 2024-11-26T04:55:18-0500

511 · 2024-11-26T06:41:18-0500

igor_kavinski said:
View attachment 112173
View attachment 112174

C2C latency are not going to tell the whole picture the latency between Core <-> IMC is what's killing ARL

igor_kavinski · 2024-11-26T06:55:30-0500

511 said:
C2C latency are not going to tell the whole picture the latency between Core <-> IMC is what's killing ARL

They need better microcode to overclock the internal data pathways on demand during heavy demanding workloads. How much of an OC on average is what they need to decide, assuming they want the chips to work for at least 3 years without giving up the ghost or corrupting data.

511 · 2024-11-26T07:49:10-0500

Yeah better not to mess with Clocks outside of factory

OneEng2 · 2024-11-26T08:27:27-0500

511 said:
Yeah better not to mess with Clocks outside of factory

Seems like everyone is nervous about clocking an Intel processor up too much. Strange .

csbin · 2024-11-26T09:54:55-0500

Performance fix?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1861378608637595886

511 · 2024-11-26T10:04:03-0500

OneEng2 said:
Seems like everyone is nervous about clocking an Intel processor up too much. Strange .

It's not Intel Clock adjustment out of lab and test silicone is a recipe for disaster

511 · 2024-11-26T10:04:48-0500

Small Intel win
Detailed thread

https://twitter.com/x/status/1861418537031520457

Intel, Biden-Harris Administration Finalize $7.86 Billion Funding...

Award to support Intel’s $100 billion investment plans to expand US semiconductor manufacturing and technology leadership.

www.intel.com

igor_kavinski · 2024-11-26T10:22:47-0500

That's not a big deal. They will eat through that in less than a year. They really need a stern financial controller, not the current idiot who thinks that students buy an extra laptop as backup.

511 · 2024-11-26T11:27:42-0500

Yes but it helps somewhat i am going to say it here but moving forward it will be impossible to build these things without subsides and government cooperation also believe it or not it is due to Pat that CHIPS act exists he was at the forefront for this so he should get credit

ondma · 2024-11-26T12:19:05-0500

511 said:
Yes but it helps somewhat i am going to say it here but moving forward it will be impossible to build these things without subsides and government cooperation also believe it or not it is due to Pat that CHIPS act exists he was at the forefront for this so he should get credit

Well, lets see if that subsidy survives the Trump administration. I would be very nervous if I were Intel, but since they are building plants domestically, maybe the tariffs will actually help them, if they ever actually get the plants up and running.

OneEng2 · 2024-11-26T12:29:11-0500

511 said:
Yes but it helps somewhat i am going to say it here but moving forward it will be impossible to build these things without subsides and government cooperation also believe it or not it is due to Pat that CHIPS act exists he was at the forefront for this so he should get credit

Absolutely.

It is high time the US started playing by the same rules as other developed countries. It's crazy how much help foreign companies get from their governments compared to the US.

igor_kavinski · 2024-11-26T12:46:54-0500

511 said:
also believe it or not it is due to Pat that CHIPS act exists he was at the forefront for this so he should get credit

There is no benefit of Pat's work thus far so giving him any credit right now is premature. All we know for the time being is that Pat keeps hyping the next big thing (right now it's 18A and Panther Lake/Nova Lake) and people keep defending him by saying that everything Intel has delivered since he stepped in as CEO was already decided before he took the helm.

Fine. I better not hear these excuses by December 2025. I mean it!

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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