Discussion AMD's Future CPU-APU Gone ARM !!!

soresu · May 26, 2024

xpea said:
But good news for Nvidia haters, nobody is invincible ; a misstep can always happen

At this point GPU side at least it would require far more than any single misstep to loosen nVidia's hold on the market which extends far beyond consumer interests.

The introduction of Intel to the GPU market is one block in that journey, the others may be the gamut of AI/ML players entering the market, which nVidia have by their own hand kind of made all about AI - so the sheer drowning weight of new players may shift the market towards open/interoperable solutions beyond nVidia's CUDA walled garden.

If AMD could work with Intel and/or MS to make a more vendor agnostic non OptiX solution for GPU RT renderers it could also be another blow to knock nVidia down a step or several.

Right now it's too much extra work to put in to implement multiple other GPU RT backends like HIP-RT and Intel's equivalent for the lions share of offline renderer vendors without the kind of direct support that nVidia offers on top of OptiX to sweeten the deal - nVidia is essentially doing almost all of the work for them, so competitors need to band together to break into that market space as one, or stay on the sidelines as many.

soresu · May 26, 2024

xpea said:
And finally the next craze is Robotics where Nvidia is heavily investing now

Not really.

It's just a hardware application of AI/ML, building on the existing hardware that others like Boston Dynamics have already been working on for years.

Basically they are trying to make it all about themselves when others have already done so much of the work to get practical humanoid robotics off the ground.

coercitiv · May 26, 2024

Opens the door: oh, they're still running the Nvidia commercials. Will come back later then, though I guess the QC spot pack may be running again soon.

soresu · May 26, 2024

coercitiv said:
Opens the door: oh, they're still running the Nvidia commercials. Will come back later then, though I guess the QC spot pack may be running again soon.

Sadly it feels like one of my favourte Youtube channels "Two Minute Papers" has long since degraded into a nVidia commercial.

If he made more of an effort to highlight the academic collaboration on the work I could be more forgiving, but he doesn't, which seems especially egregious considering his own background ☹️

jpiniero · May 26, 2024

soresu said:
Sadly it feels like one of my favourte Youtube channels "Two Minute Papers" has long since degraded into a nVidia commercial.

Wouldn't be surprised if that's intentional to try to get clicks because of AI.

soresu · May 26, 2024

jpiniero said:
Wouldn't be surprised if that's intentional to try to get clicks because of AI.

Almost certainly is, but it's very sad all the same - it used to be a great channel to get news about fluid sim algos and light transport papers without bending over backwards to give nVidia credit in every video.

It's not like there aren't other people researching ray tracing out there without nVidia input or collaboration, but you wouldn't know it to watch that channel anymore.....

Et tu, Brute?😭

branch_suggestion · May 26, 2024

coercitiv said:
Opens the door: oh, they're still running the Nvidia commercials. Will come back later then, though I guess the QC spot pack may be running again soon.

It is the nature of every AMD thread on B3D, it ends up with NV bull theses and constant tit-for-tat.

xpea · May 26, 2024

soresu said:
Not really.

It's just a hardware application of AI/ML, building on the existing hardware that others like Boston Dynamics have already been working on for years.

Basically they are trying to make it all about themselves when others have already done so much of the work to get practical humanoid robotics off the ground.

Yes it's huge. They are in the infancy but they put lot of resources in this division.

BTW Boston Dynamics was a research project with no real revenue down the road (they were focused on military application first). Google took over and in their typical fashion, had no idea what to do with it, and they finally sold it to Hyundai. But the Koreans are confused too. They try to find industrial applications and changed lot of things towards this direction but now they shifted to commercial Robot. I don't see a bright future under this management...

On the other side, Nvidia robotics has a clear vision: commercial robots first, then when the cost will go down, attack the prosumer market. Both in offering new Jetson SoCs tailored for this application (instead of generic repurposed Drive SoCs) and in building platforms that can be sold to OEMs. It's the next big thing for Nvidia.

xpea · May 26, 2024

branch_suggestion said:
It is the nature of every AMD thread on B3D, it ends up with NV bull theses and constant tit-for-tat.

coercitiv said:
Opens the door: oh, they're still running the Nvidia commercials. Will come back later then, though I guess the QC spot pack may be running again soon.

I may be wrong but I feel these messages totally inappropriate.
By definition, a forum is a place where you exchange ideas, confront opinions and in Anandtech case, also discuss the technical solutions and merits from different parties, with courtesy and respect. A forum is not a single sided community, without any counter argument, where everyone chill for their favorite team. If you think so, then your are deeply misunderstood.
It's been nearly 10 years that I'm part of this community and the open-mind attitude is what made this forum successful and enjoyable. I wish it will continue this way for another 10 years

branch_suggestion · May 26, 2024

xpea said:
I may be wrong but I feel these messages totally inappropriate.
By definition, a forum is a place where you exchange ideas, confront opinions and in Anandtech case, also discuss the technical solutions and merits from different parties, with courtesy and respect. A forum is not a single sided community, without any counter argument, where everyone chill for their favorite team. If you think so, then your are deeply misunderstood.
It's been nearly 10 years that I'm part of this community and the open-mind attitude is what made this forum successful and enjoyable. I wish it will continue this way for another 10 years

Just don't admonish the topic of the thread and nobody has to get hurt. Mods here do a very good job at keeping things topical and we are all better for it.

coercitiv · May 27, 2024

xpea said:
It's been nearly 10 years that I'm part of this community and the open-mind attitude is what made this forum successful and enjoyable. I wish it will continue this way for another 10 years

After 10 years it may finally be the time for you to read on the forum rules and etiquette. Each thread presents forumites with a topic they should address, the title and the OP set the boundaries of the discussion. While folks are allowed to go off-topic, they are discouraged to do so because it taints the thread subject that others want to follow. Keeping the discussions on topic is not about creating safe spaces, but rather about noise reduction. After 10 years of posting on this forum, I can tell you the model works really well while allowing plenty of freedom for heated debates. The only "safe spaces" I know are the GPU sub-forums, and folks still prefer to openly discuss in the joint forum section.

If you have information to share on future Nvidia ARM products, make a thread about it. Comparisons with the competition will still be welcome there, but folks won't be allowed to hijack the thread with continuous talk about other brands.

Mahboi · May 27, 2024

branch_suggestion said:
It is the nature of every AMD thread on B3D, it ends up with NV bull theses and constant tit-for-tat.

And B3D is still up so why is there one of them here?
We're fine in the third dimension, no need for fourth dimension people to come and try to bend reality to their Nvidia fueled fantasies.

Edit: I've just put him on Ignore list, I hate to do that in tech spaces but I almost got banned yesterday because of him, best to not take chances

xpea · May 27, 2024

coercitiv said:
you have information to share on future Nvidia ARM products, make a thread about it.

That's what I did in the dedicated thread:

Post in thread 'What will the CPU industry marketshare look like in the future? Nvidia enters the game. The Rise of ARM?' http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...he-game-the-rise-of-arm.2619446/post-41217524

You're welcome

Tigerick · May 27, 2024

xpea said:
That's what I did in the dedicated thread:

You're welcome

Discussion - nVidia's ARM SoC Coming Back?

Highly Confident: When Reuter reported NV and AMD are going to launch ARM SoC for PC: Nvidia dominates the market for artificial intelligence computing chips. Now it is coming after Intel’s longtime stronghold of personal computers. Nvidia has quietly begun designing central processing units...

forums.anandtech.com

Here's the dedicated thread for NV ARM SoC, you are welcome to post any related news about NV ARM SoC there.

DAPUNISHER · May 27, 2024

coercitiv said:
After 10 years it may finally be the time for you to read on the forum rules and etiquette. Each thread presents forumites with a topic they should address, the title and the OP set the boundaries of the discussion. While folks are allowed to go off-topic, they are discouraged to do so because it taints the thread subject that others want to follow. Keeping the discussions on topic is not about creating safe spaces, but rather about noise reduction. After 10 years of posting on this forum, I can tell you the model works really well while allowing plenty of freedom for heated debates. The only "safe spaces" I know are the GPU sub-forums, and folks still prefer to openly discuss in the joint forum section.

If you have information to share on future Nvidia ARM products, make a thread about it. Comparisons with the competition will still be welcome there, but folks won't be allowed to hijack the thread with continuous talk about other brands.

Well stated.

To clarify about the safe spaces - those are vendor specific threads. Like the Intel, AMD, Nvidia, and Apple discussion and builders threads for example. Those exist so users and enthusiasts of those brands can talk about the products, services, etc. without being harrassed by what colloquially are dubbed "haters" posting flame bait and disrupting in otherwise fun and informative discussion.

And yes, this is an AMD thead. However, it is the type that invites compare and contrast as you noted. But as you also rightly alluded to, turning it into a platform to proselytize about a different vendor is disruptive and hence, not allowed.

Any talk of other vendors should be in the context of AMD as the primary subject. And the compare and contrast needs to be entirely relevant, not ancillary or tangential. Otherwise warnings and infractions will follow.

Mod DAPUNISHER

DAPUNISHER · May 27, 2024

xpea said:
It's been nearly 10 years that I'm part of this community and the open-mind attitude is what made this forum successful and enjoyable. I wish it will continue this way for another 10 years

That's the plan. Part of that, is not planting your flag in the wrong territory so to speak. That's how wars start. So be diplomatic is all we ask.

We all want the same thing; to discuss topics of common interests. Picking the right venue is the easiest way to ensure a receptive audience. Instead of getting booed off stage.

Mod DAPUNISHER

soresu · May 27, 2024

xpea said:
BTW Boston Dynamics was a research project with no real revenue down the road

Nothing works that way.

They got funding from somewhere by presenting a business plan for a loan, govmt grant or a funding round.

Every business plan has revenue projections, even if those projections are vague and over a decade in the future.

Without said projections there's nothing to entice a bank to lend, nor any investor to sink their money into it.

(I'll grant you that govmts are clearly a lot less picky looking at the past of fusion research investment prior to private parties finally dipping their toes in)

Edit: After the mod stuff above I just noticed this really isn't the thread for this kinda topic 😅

ToTTenTranz · May 28, 2024

About the ARM v. x86, the opinion that matters the most is the one from the great Midas of CPUs, grandmaster Jim Keller:

TL;DR: No, it mostly doesn't matter because the proportion of silicon that's doing the instruction decoding is now tiny and irrelevant, and so is its power consumption.

FlameTail said:
It iz very good, my friend.
View attachment 99660

16GB RAM, though... state-of-the-art LP5X can't come cheap in price-per-GB.

Mahboi said:
And B3D is still up so why is there one of them here?

I thought it was over or at least dying very fast, which is why its users of a certain type were leaking.
But yes, all topics had to be infested with lengthy conversations on why our lord savior Nvidia was so much better than everyone else at everything in every single theme. Kind of what was being attempted here (by one of those same users nonetheless).

Tigerick · 2024-11-26T00:35:48-0500

AMD Rumored To Enter The "Smartphone Markets", Likely Introducing APU-Like "Ryzen AI' SoCs

AMD is rumored to enter the "smartphone markets" and is already in talks with integrators to have its "Ryzen AI" mobile SoCs in smartphones.

wccftech.com

Taiwan Source in Chinese: https://money.udn.com/money/story/12926/8382001?from=edn_search_result

Above articles mentioned that AMD is going to release APU/SoC for smartphone market with TSMC's 3nm process (most likely N3P). I know lots of people will question the truth of this article, let alone my speculation about AMD is going to switch to ARM platform.... well, let's speculate with more tidbits below:

Golden Pig Upgrade leaked about AMD future roadmap; he said AMD will refresh STX platform again in 2026. That's mean STX will be available for three years without any replacement. Hmm, where is AMD putting resources into ???

2. https://www.gizchina.com/2024/11/25...0-production-due-to-manufacturing-challenges/

Samsung might scrap upcoming Exynos 2600 APU totally due to low yield. Of course, things could change but there is no doubt SF2 process is facing challenge with upcoming Qualcomm/Mediatek/Apple SoCs that are fabbed by TSMC's N3P process. It seems SF won't be able competing with TSMC process; therefore Samsung has no choice but to outsource SoC to Qualcomm. With single vendor, Samsung has to pay high price. Do you think Samsung won't try to find second source??? Could AMD be the right candidate? AMD has already licensed RDNA IP to Samsung and Samsung has 5G modem IP, that makes win-win solution for both...Could AMD be pouring billion into developing Ryzen AI SoC due to Samsung's commitment???

3. The inclusion of SME makes M4 and A18 Pro performance leader in single thread of Geekbench 6. So far we know Mediatek going to implement SME inside their SoC next year. That's mean Mediatek will get big boost in ST performance due to SME... Do we get any news about upcoming NVL/Zen6's implementation ???

4. Could Soundwave refer to above smartphone APU? NV is rumored to rush their ARM APU before AMD's Soundwave. There was rumor said NV is going to implement LPDDR6 with their first ARM SoC for WoA, could AMD following the same design ??

Feel free to express your argument. And stay tuned for more AMD ARM news in the future...

igor_kavinski · 2024-11-26T03:58:51-0500

Microsoft really proved "If you build it, they will come" with Windows on ARM.

Could this be why Intel hurriedly got AMD onboard with the x86 alliance, reminding them that they owe everything to x86? But Lisa doesn't care about ISA. She only cares about execution. Interesting if Intel tries to compete with Windows on ARM SoCs with just x86 SoCs. It could give us an Apple M killer or it could make Intel suffer even more (lower prices trying to compete etc.)

poke01 · 2024-11-26T04:09:24-0500

What if Soundwave is for the Steam deck?

valve is investing heavily into arm builds of proton

marees · 2024-11-26T04:57:50-0500

poke01 said:
valve is investing heavily into arm builds of proton

That is probably for nvidia & DLSS

moinmoin · 2024-11-26T07:13:59-0500

marees said:
That is probably for nvidia & DLSS

That's closed source either way so Nvidia's turf. How would Valve contribute to that?

Gideon · 2024-11-26T07:17:52-0500

I have to say I find the rumor about AMD entering smartphone market quite unlikely.

It just makes so little sense to want to be part of it.

It's an ultra competitive market, that is very mature and shrinking with rather low margins (for most SoCs sold at least) and requires a ton of unique and specific IP blocks. Not to mention quite a bit different packaging from what AMD is used to.

There is no way they would do it without a partner that has at least some knowledge in the area. And even then the effort required compared to the possible adressable market is just way too small.

Tigerick said:
With single vendor, Samsung has to pay high price. Do you think Samsung won't try to find second source??? Could AMD be the right candidate? AMD has already licensed RDNA IP to Samsung and Samsung has 5G modem IP, that makes win-win solution for both...Could AMD be pouring billion into developing Ryzen AI SoC due to Samsung's commitment???

From all the possible partners Samsung is indeed the only one that would make any sense at all, but even that is littered with caveats.

Samsung is already using both Qualcomm and Mediatek, so they are not single sourced. If they were indeed thinking of outright partnering with AMD I very much doubt they'd be interested of outsourcomg that SoC to TSMC as well. But with the current state of Samsungs processes I don't see how that SoC could ever compete, never mind how good it is ...

Even ignoring all that, AMD would have to compete with both Mediatek and Qualcomm. What differentiators would AMD or AMD + Samsung have compared to Mediatek? A custom GPU wont be a relevant to 99% of the users. If they were to use a custom ARM core, they would have to pay large royalties to ARM (as per the qualcomm court case) and it would have to be noticabley better than the ARM baseline. I just don't see that happening either. Zens backend is good, but it most certainly doesn't deliver any perf/watt gains against ARMs best in the smartphone power budget range (it might do better in servers).

I could see AMD maaaybe trying something, if they were planning to start designing custom ARM cores anyway (for servers and maybe laptops), but considering the licencing models ARM is forcing right now, i think it would make much more sense to go the RISC-V way (if they indeed were planning to diversify their lineup).

poke01 · 2024-11-26T07:21:23-0500

moinmoin said:
That's closed source either way so Nvidia's turf. How would Valve contribute to that?

Valve added DLSS 3 support to proton.

Latest Valve Proton Experimental update enables DLSS 3 Frame Generation and fixes performance in dozens of games

The November 12th Proton Experimental update implements and improves upon Proton 9.0-3

www.tomshardware.com

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