Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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Apr 1, 2022
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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E012 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4TSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15



Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



 

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511

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Jul 12, 2024
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There is no benefit of Pat's work thus far so giving him any credit right now is premature. All we know for the time being is that Pat keeps hyping the next big thing (right now it's 18A and Panther Lake/Nova Lake) and people keep defending him by saying that everything Intel has delivered since he stepped in as CEO was already decided before he took the helm.

Fine. I better not hear these excuses by December 2025. I mean it!
I never said he delivered everything on time but at least give him credit where it is due 🫠🫠
 

MoistOintment

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Jul 31, 2024
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All we know for the time being is that Pat keeps hyping the next big thing (right now it's 18A and Panther Lake/Nova Lake)
18A is the thing Pat has been hyping before Intel 4 was even in customer hands. It's the most important thing Intel has done (for Intel) for as long as I've been following hardware. It's the make-it-or-break-it measurement of his entire tenure as CEO. Everything between when he took office until 18A has been mostly projects already in the pipeline and him cutting costs to tread water.

18A is not simply "the next thing he's hyping". It will determine if he still has a job or not. He still has a job because the most important change he's enacted can't be measured until 18A launches.
 
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OneEng2

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Sep 19, 2022
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18A is the thing Pat has been hyping before Intel 4 was even in customer hands. It's the most important thing Intel has done (for Intel) for as long as I've been following hardware. It's the make-it-or-break-it measurement of his entire tenure as CEO. Everything between when he took office until 18A has been mostly projects already in the pipeline and him cutting costs to tread water.

18A is not simply "the next thing he's hyping". It will determine if he still has a job or not. He still has a job because the most important change he's enacted can't be measured until 18A launches.
Agree.

I still wonder about this strategy though. Put everything on the line to pay for an exponentially more expensive and complex process. Hmm.

Lets say it works and 18A is all that and a bag of chips. It isn't like it is going to blow N2 out of the water like some historic Intel nodes have in the past. In fact, it will be better than N2 in some respects and worse in others from what I can gather. Still, the point remains, what then? Mortgage the company again for the next node which may be even more expensive?
 

511

Golden Member
Jul 12, 2024
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18A is the thing Pat has been hyping before Intel 4 was even in customer hands. It's the most important thing Intel has done (for Intel) for as long as I've been following hardware. It's the make-it-or-break-it measurement of his entire tenure as CEO. Everything between when he took office until 18A has been mostly projects already in the pipeline and him cutting costs to tread water.

18A is not simply "the next thing he's hyping". It will determine if he still has a job or not. He still has a job because the most important change he's enacted can't be measured until 18A launches.
Apparently Daniel nenni from semi wiki think 18A is good from the sources he has inside industr
 
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mzocyteae

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2020
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In fact, it will be better than N2 in some respects and worse in others from what I can gather. Still, the point remains, what then? Mortgage the company again for the next node which may be even more expensive?
If 18a is that good, intel will get decent foundry orders. Then next nodes would be less harsh.
The real question would be if 18a can compete with n3 with quality+cost.
 

MoistOintment

Member
Jul 31, 2024
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Agree.

I still wonder about this strategy though. Put everything on the line to pay for an exponentially more expensive and complex process. Hmm.

Lets say it works and 18A is all that and a bag of chips. It isn't like it is going to blow N2 out of the water like some historic Intel nodes have in the past. In fact, it will be better than N2 in some respects and worse in others from what I can gather. Still, the point remains, what then? Mortgage the company again for the next node which may be even more expensive?
Why external customers are so important. Gotta spread those costs across more volume than Intel Products can provide alone. But that's inevitable: Each new node will be more expensive than the last.

What hurts Intel the most is years or proprietary tooling and older nodes focused on HPC over density. Intel would be in a much better spot financially if Intel 7 was based around industry standard tooling and they could open it up as a high volume, low cost legacy node to keep the DUV lines active as they move on to 18A / Intel 3. Securing Intel 16 customers is a critical component of this strategy that's, imo, under discussed. Keeping DUV lines filled after Intel Products moves on is an important step.
 
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SiliconFly

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2023
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There is no benefit of Pat's work thus far so giving him any credit right now is premature. All we know for the time being is that Pat keeps hyping the next big thing (right now it's 18A and Panther Lake/Nova Lake) and people keep defending him by saying that everything Intel has delivered since he stepped in as CEO was already decided before he took the helm.

Fine. I better not hear these excuses by December 2025. I mean it!
Rubbish. Pat has set Intel in a new direction that has a future. If not for him, Intel would be churning out 7nm wafers for the foreseeable future, Intel 4 would have launched in 2026, all their cpus would still be monolithic. And their entire future would have been reliant on TSMC. Turning around such a big sinking ship takes time and effort. And thanks to him, Intel is still alive and is able to compete a bit with competition. Apparently, it looks like it's fashionable to trash talk Intel these days.

18A is the big thing, while Panther Lake/Nova Lake are minor.
The only thing relevant is that Panther/Nova should be get more blocks built from intel foundry.
If they manage to build enough 18A capacity on time and if they can bring the yields up, 18A can make one hell of a difference (but too many ifs as of now).

18A is the thing Pat has been hyping before Intel 4 was even in customer hands. It's the most important thing Intel has done (for Intel) for as long as I've been following hardware. It's the make-it-or-break-it measurement of his entire tenure as CEO. Everything between when he took office until 18A has been mostly projects already in the pipeline and him cutting costs to tread water.

18A is not simply "the next thing he's hyping". It will determine if he still has a job or not. He still has a job because the most important change he's enacted can't be measured until 18A launches.
Not just his tenure. It's a make-it-or-break-it moment for Intel itself. If 18A doesn't deliver on time, Intel as we know will cease to exist.

Agree.

I still wonder about this strategy though. Put everything on the line to pay for an exponentially more expensive and complex process. Hmm.

Lets say it works and 18A is all that and a bag of chips. It isn't like it is going to blow N2 out of the water like some historic Intel nodes have in the past. In fact, it will be better than N2 in some respects and worse in others from what I can gather. Still, the point remains, what then? Mortgage the company again for the next node which may be even more expensive?
Pat mentioned many times that bringing manufacturing in-house actually increases their margins. So, in some way, their own foundries tend to be more beneficial for them than shelling out billions of dollars to TSMC every year.

Apparently Daniel nenni from semi wiki think 18A is good from the sources he has inside industr
Wow! Thats the first real big positive sign we've actually seen regarding 18A.

If 18a is that good, intel will get decent foundry orders. Then next nodes would be less harsh.
The real question would be if 18a can compete with n3 with quality+cost.
18A does not compete with N3. It competes with N2.

Come on. Intel is never leaping ahead of the fab industry again. The other competitors (mainly TSMC) gained wayyy too much experience and expertise during the languishing era of Krzanich.
There's no leaping ahead in terms of foundry profits. They clearly said they aspire to be second by 2030. But they can match the competition in terms of leading edge tech. In fact 14A will be the world's first High-NA node.
 
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GTracing

Member
Aug 6, 2021
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My take, if 18A pans out, Intel won't have nearly as much of a cash flow problem in the future.

Right now they're playing catch-up. They're financing multiple nodes at once.
Their nodes prior to "Intel 4" are dated, and they can't really sell capacity on those older nodes because they don't use industry standard tooling.

Intel doesn't have to surpass TSMC or even catch them. If 18A is 2-3 years behind in PPA, has good yields, and gets a few customers, Intel will be fine.
 

SiliconFly

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2023
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My take, if 18A pans out, Intel won't have nearly as much of a cash flow problem in the future.

Right now they're playing catch-up. They're financing multiple nodes at once.
Their nodes prior to "Intel 4" are dated, and they can't really sell capacity on those older nodes because they don't use industry standard tooling.

Intel doesn't have to surpass TSMC or even catch them. If 18A is 2-3 years behind in PPA, has good yields, and gets a few customers, Intel will be fine.
Well said. Actually I think even Intel 3 is a bit dated as of now. I don't think many customers will want to use it cos there isn't much future with it. But with 18A, they have so many variants launching back-to-back, they should be able to keep the momentum going forward.

Like you mentioned, all this clearly boils down to "if 18A pans out". They have a difficult road ahead.
 
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maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
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Node, node, node.

Materials/chemistry? If I remember correctly, it wasn't node size that mainly sank 10nm, but chemical incompatibilities.

Having a similar node size as the competitor is a good start, but definitely not the final word.
 

moinmoin

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2017
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Apparently Daniel nenni from semi wiki think 18A is good from the sources he has inside industr
I recall positive impressions like this having happened in the past as well so consider me sceptical. In the past I attributed this potential mismatch to Intel's seemingly excellent foundry PR.
 

SiliconFly

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2023
1,657
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Node, node, node.

Materials/chemistry? If I remember correctly, it wasn't node size that mainly sank 10nm, but chemical incompatibilities.

Having a similar node size as the competitor is a good start, but definitely not the final word.
Well, it all boils down to who has the best transistors. Remember the time when Pat kept singing on stage about how wonderful their RibbonFET transistors are and was comparing them to Mona Lisa. It matters. 18A I think has excellent transistors. Expected to clock higher than N2 (possible higher Fmax due to BSPDN).

And according to Daniel Nenni, 18A is better than N3B, N3, N3E & N3X and is close to N2. Pat himself said 18A is very close to N2 in density & better than N2 in performance. Its pretty clear 18A is on par with N2 in most aspects.

If they can get yields up & hit decent volume on time, 2025 would be an amazing year for Intel.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
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Well, it all boils down to who has the best transistors. Remember the time when Pat kept singing on stage about how wonderful their RibbonFET transistors are and was comparing them to Mona Lisa. It matters. 18A I think has excellent transistors. Expected to clock higher than N2 (possible higher Fmax due to BSPDN).

And according to Daniel Nenni, 18A is better than N3B, N3, N3E & N3X and is close to N2. Pat himself said 18A is very close to N2 in density & better than N2 in performance. Its pretty clear 18A is on par with N2 in most aspects.

If they can get yields up & hit decent volume on time, 2025 would be an amazing year for Intel.
He has been singing, dancing & praying for a long time now, but somehow, it keeps getting worse. Falling for the same fantastical message repeatedly is not wise. A smart person will think to see the actual physical product after so many false predictions the past several years. I want a strong company but will not dance to the PR spin.
 

SiliconFly

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2023
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He has been singing, dancing & praying for a long time now, but somehow, it keeps getting worse. Falling for the same fantastical message repeatedly is not wise. A smart person will think to see the actual physical product after so many false predictions the past several years. I want a strong company but will not dance to the PR spin.
Thats why smart people don't take PR words for granted. Neither AMD's nor Intel's. It's never wise. Independent views/reviews matter. And they have good things to say about 18A. Either way, Intel is all set to release 18A details in a couple of months. Don't worry.
 

DavidC1

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Dec 29, 2023
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And according to Daniel Nenni, 18A is better than N3B, N3, N3E & N3X and is close to N2. Pat himself said 18A is very close to N2 in density & better than N2 in performance. Its pretty clear 18A is on par with N2 in most aspects.
When did Pat say it'll be close in density to N2?

By the way IEDM presentations already revealed SRAM size. 18A is 0.021um2 and N2 is 0.0175um2. 18A's SRAM size is same as N3E. Now logic might be different, but my estimations with Crestmont says 18A should be around N3 in density.
18A should lead in performance but lose in density.
 
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SiliconFly

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When did Pat say it'll be close in density to N2?

By the way IEDM presentations already revealed SRAM size. 18A is 0.021um2 and N2 is 0.0175um2. 18A's SRAM size is same as N3E. Now logic might be different, but my estimations with Crestmont says 18A should be around N3 in density.
18A should lead in performance but lose in density.
After the sram size reveal, daniel nenni posted saying 18A is between N3X & N2.
 
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