Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

KompuKare · Dec 31, 2024

For Zen6 ISA feature best I could find is this post

511 said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1870439328595214562
View attachment 114046

Nevermind software developers, anyone working on AVX/AMX at Intel/AMD/VIA needs to feature table big enough to cover a whole wall just to know what they themself support. Software developers have it even harder as that whole-wall table really needs to be 3D with a feature checkbox for each subset, each vendor and each vendors various CPUs.

Plenty of Schadenfreude to go around for Intel as their decades of segmentation is entirely on them. That plus their near endless fragmentation means Intel really have painted into a corner. A 3D or 4D corner, that is!

As for fragmentation and standards, well I feel the xkcd carton on standards is obligatory here (surprised nobody has posted it yet, actually):

Standards

xkcd.com

alcoholbob · Dec 31, 2024

511 said:
View attachment 114045
CN source

挺好,自证问题了~ - 电脑讨论(新) - Chiphell - 分享与交流用户体验

挺好,自证问题了~,电脑讨论(新),讨论区-生活与技术的讨论 ,Chiphell - 分享与交流用户体验

www.chiphell.com

It's a nice improvement, but even with all this it's still slower than a stock 14900K, considering some youtubers were running 4.3GHz ring with delided 285Ks, maxed tuned with direct die cooling and still couldn't beat a stock 14900K with same speed RAM. It's never going to catch up to the last gen. Just hope Intel doesn't fall even further behind before Nova Lake launches in 2027.

SiliconFly · Dec 31, 2024

igor_kavinski · Jan 1, 2025

Here’s what happens when you run an Intel Core Ultra 9 285K at 65W | Club386

Dialling down the wattage from 250W to 65W is an exercise well-suited to the cream of the Intel Arrow Lake CPU crop.

www.club386.com

511 · Jan 2, 2025

Don't know if it was posted or not but Xe3 vs Xe1 in ARL-H is 2X the gains (12Xe3 vs 8e1) and we are looking at more than 100% performance

https://twitter.com/x/status/1873847774586020298

dttprofessor · Jan 2, 2025

Xe3 is FalconShore ?

adroc_thurston · Jan 2, 2025

dttprofessor said:
Xe3 is FalconShore ?

More like Falcon Shores is an Xe3 derivative.

poke01 · Jan 2, 2025

511 said:
Don't know if it was posted or not but Xe3 vs Xe1 in ARL-H is 2X the gains (12Xe3 vs 8e1) and we are looking at more than 100% performance

https://twitter.com/x/status/1873847774586020298

Well its moving from 8Xe cores to 12Xe3 cores so 2X isnt't suprising.

adroc_thurston · Jan 2, 2025

poke01 said:
Well its moving from 8Xe cores to 12Xe3 cores so 2X isnt't suprising.

It's actually impressive given that bandwidth doesn't grow on trees.

poke01 · Jan 2, 2025

adroc_thurston said:
It's actually impressive given that bandwidth doesn't grow on trees.

Added 4 more cores, newer arch, higher clocks and is on N3E. PTL-H is going to be a great SoC for laptops.

511 · Jan 2, 2025

poke01 said:
Added 4 more cores, newer arch, higher clocks and is on N3E. PTL-H is going to be a great SoC for laptops.

also
> Beefed Up Chadmont
> No Tiling issues
> Good Low Power Island (not just meh)
Cons
> Meh P cores again afaik
> MoP missing not as low power vs LNL

My expectations
Also I don't know whether it will have PMIC support or not

igor_kavinski · Jan 2, 2025

Former Activision employee explaining APO: https://www.overclock.net/posts/29408511/

According to him, the answer to what APO does, is "complex".

Philste · Jan 2, 2025

adroc_thurston said:
It's actually impressive given that bandwidth doesn't grow on trees.

Because Intel for some reason still doesn't care and just puts enough cache in there to make it work even if it takes space. Strix is still sitting at 2MB L2 for iGPU? LNL has 8MB L2 and option to use that 8MB SLC. I bet PTL-H/P has at least 16MB inside that iGPU.

511 · Jan 2, 2025

Philste said:
Because Intel for some reason still doesn't care and just puts enough cache in there to make it work. Strix is still sitting at 2MB L2 for iGPU? LNL has 8MB L2 and option to use that 8MB SLC. I bet PTL-H/P has at least 16MB inside that iGPU.

8 MB SLC is just not for the iGPU though it has many other uses

adroc_thurston · Jan 2, 2025

511 said:
Also I don't know whether it will have PMIC support or not

it does not.

511 said:
> Beefed Up Chadmont
> No Tiling issues
> Good Low Power Island (not just meh)

it's all goodenough already.

511 · Jan 2, 2025

adroc_thurston said:
it does not.

I am not sure cause MTL-U has optional 2 PMIC Power Management I would not be surprised if PTL-U end up having this 2 PMICs are not costly w.r.t to BOM if we are allowed to diversify

adroc_thurston said:
it's all goodenough already.

Yeah hoping it matches M4 Pro (in MT ar least) and ST between M3/M4 that would make it damm good

adroc_thurston · Jan 2, 2025

511 said:
MTL has optional 2 PMIC Power Management

stuff no one uses since MTL-M is a thing that did not really ship.

511 said:
Yeah hoping it matches M4 Pro (in MT ar least) and ST

Well. Uh. 18A kinda gets in the way.

511 · Jan 2, 2025

adroc_thurston said:
stuff no one uses since MTL-M is a thing that did not really ship.

I meant MTL-U😅

adroc_thurston said:
Well. Uh. 18A kinda gets in the way.

Nope it doesn't stop blaming it on 18A it's not even out yet we will wait for ARL-U performance to gauge 18A

Hitman928 · Jan 2, 2025

511 said:
I meant MTL-U😅

Nope it doesn't stop blaming it on 18A it's not even out yet we will wait for ARL-U performance to gauge 18A

Isn't ARL-U on Intel 3?

511 · Jan 2, 2025

Hitman928 said:
Isn't ARL-U on Intel 3?

Yes it is But we have a better comparison points with MTL-U -> ARL-U for the nodes (18A was supposed to be 15% faster than I3 so we would have our answer for 18A performance )

Meteor Late · Jan 2, 2025

That means believing Intel on the 15% of course.

DavidC1 · Jan 2, 2025

Philste said:
Because Intel for some reason still doesn't care and just puts enough cache in there to make it work. Strix is still sitting at 2MB L2 for iGPU? LNL has 8MB L2 and option to use that 8MB SLC. I bet PTL-H/P has at least 16MB inside that iGPU.

I wouldn't put much stock on LNL's SLC. It's so slow that the Arrowlake's SKT is almost 25% faster per clock. It's SRAM cache but performs like DRAM system memory.

511 said:
> Beefed Up Chadmont
> Meh P cores again afaik

3-5% for Darkmont and 8-10% for P cores(rumor), so P will fare a bit better comparatively.

OneEng2 · Jan 2, 2025

DavidC1 said:
I wouldn't put much stock on LNL's SLC. It's so slow that the Arrowlake's SKT is almost 25% faster per clock. It's SRAM cache but performs like DRAM system memory.

3-5% for Darkmont and 8-10% for P cores(rumor), so P will fare a bit better comparatively.

I think the P Cores are most hamstrung by the ring bus latency ..... at least that is my theory .

511 · Jan 2, 2025

DavidC1 said:
I wouldn't put much stock on LNL's SLC. It's so slow that the Arrowlake's SKT is almost 25% faster per clock. It's SRAM cache but performs like DRAM system memory.

3-5% for Darkmont and 8-10% for P cores(rumor), so P will fare a bit better comparatively.

We will see I have heard same improvements for both P and E of 5-8%

DavidC1 · Jan 3, 2025

511 said:
We will see I have heard same improvements for both P and E of 5-8%

You aren't getting more than 3-5% for Darkmont. Now for Arctic Wolf I anticipate a BIG upgrade.

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